The FBI Just Settled the 9mm vs .40 vs .45 Debate

[ProudPhoenician]

these debates have been around longer than most people here have been born. But one thing is that modern 9mm (and by modern I mean since the 1970s) is that 9mm has been preferred by more professionals than the .45. If you're looking for suppressed handguns, I am going to hand it over to the .45ACP since many .45ACP loads are subsonic by default, and a subsonic 9mm will lose more striking power compared to it.

But even in terms of suppressed guns, there are very specialized handguns such as the OTs-38 that make little more than dry firing sounds when firing live ammo. I wish I could have one of those revolvers, they're simply too damn cool!

 

[Craig0ry]

So, here's a question for the LEO's. The FBI guy brings up some great points that I've never thought of before, that being the problem with light grain projectiles and barrier penetration. Whether that barrier is a forearm (the AK 47 analogy) or heavily boned structures like shoulder joint enfilade trajectories. James asks the FBI guy that without endorsing, what type of ammo should civilians be looking to buy. The response was heavy weight, +P type ammo, the stuff branded as LEO ammo. Here's the question and the conundrum though. Whenever I look at this type of ammo, it's nickel washed brass cased, 147 grain, hollow points. Are LEO's using hollow points as duty ammo? I was of the understanding that hollow points speak to some sort of criminal intent? If so, how are cops being issued it?

as stated earlier all LEO will use Hollow point or expanding rounds. FBI uses critical duty 135gr+p
Rcmp used to use winchester SXT 147gr here in my area. And local police PD was carrying Speer gold dot in .40
higher end defensive ammo will have nickle plated brass, reduces friction in the mag and chamber aiding to more reliability. Bullet weight also depends greatly on barrel length as well, the two coincide with eachother.

 

[terez]

Ha that silly debate still

Tactics and shot placement still rule....always have
Pistols are what they are

The variables of the target will always be ..well..variable
Big/small/close or far away/cover/body armor/high on drugs and or otherwise determined....so many variables

TrainingTrainingTraining first and foremost...professional or civvy
Can you draw quickly and make multiple hits
Can you shoot...evaluate if U are hitting and or are they effective.....make adjustments until they do
Can you make multiple hits ...gun ergos/size/recoil etc
Can you recognize a malfunction and act appropriately with clearance drills and or mag changes
Create distance/shoot and move/use cover

This is all so much more important than cartridge performance.
Pistol cartridges have limited energy...they need to be well placed and or multiple hits...and you need to change tactics when they are failing to stop

The British learned this a long time ago fighting nearly naked aggressors armed with spears ....came up with the mozambique drill....If experiencing failure to stop with your pistol.... start alternating shots to the pelvis and then head ....almost any human will go down with one or more hits to the pelvis area.... this drill became very relevant later when body armour became a variable in defensive shooting.


45/9/40/357/10mm meh Do I have the gun/does it go bang reliably/can I shoot it well under pressure/does it have reasonable capacity ....My priorities

 

[mmattockx]

Are LEO's using hollow points as duty ammo?

Law enforcement across North America has used hollow points for many decades now. The hollow point = bad intentions myth is long dead at this point.

That S&W was heavy for a 'compact', though.

I have a 1006 and it is a boat anchor, which is not a bad thing with thermonuclear level 10mm reloads (or the original Norma factory loads). It weighs a couple ounces more than a 5" 1911 sitting beside it in my safe. Bare pistols, no mags or ammo:

1911 - 1038g (36.6oz)
1006 - 1099g (38.7oz)

If you're looking for suppressed handguns, I am going to hand it over to the .45ACP since many .45ACP loads are subsonic by default, and a subsonic 9mm will lose more striking power compared to it.

.45ACP is much harder to suppress effectively because of the large bore size and lower operating pressure. Full power 147gr 9mm is subsonic out of a 5" or shorter handgun barrel.


Mark

 

[ProudPhoenician]

.45ACP is much harder to suppress effectively because of the large bore size and lower operating pressure. Full power 147gr 9mm is subsonic out of a 5" or shorter handgun barrel.

I stand corrected then.

 

[dan belisle]

I sold the 1066 quite a few years ago via the EE here on CGN. So, it was up for grabs at some point. Someone out there has it.

I really liked it but had acquired another Colt Delta [had one circa mid 1990's but had previously sold it] then also later a stainless Delta Gold Cup, too. That S&W was heavy for a 'compact', though.

------------
NAA.

Yes, I have a few other 10's. Colt 1911, Colt Double Eagle and a Glock. I liked the feel of those S&W's though. As you say, heavy, but that helps with recoil. - dan

 

[old303]

Hollow points and centre-of-mass aiming would go hand-in-hand with the good guys wearing body armor and the bad guys generally not. And the occasional blue-on-blue misunderstanding does happen, and confirmation the vest worked is better than other ways that could play out.

 

[PSE]

Hypothetically speaking that's all fine and good if you live in a country where excellent reliable hollow points are readily available at decent prices but if you don't reside there then all of a sudden the most effective FMJ which is readily available at decent prices takes on a whole new perspective.

The first question I always ask the 9 mm fanboys is "So how many of these magic cartridges do you have stocked?"
The answer inevitably is not very many or perhaps none at all (due to cost and availability). My rejoiner is then "Well then do you think that maybe then one should gravitate to the most cost effective ammo that is widely available.

 

[I Dont Care About You]

light grain projectiles

"Grain" is a measure of weight. You would never say, "light pound projectile" or "light gram projectile". The correct sentence is, "light weight projectile"

The response was heavy weight, +P type ammo, the stuff branded as LEO ammo. Here's the question and the conundrum though. Whenever I look at this type of ammo, it's nickel washed brass cased, 147 grain, hollow points. Are LEO's using hollow points as duty ammo? I was of the understanding that hollow points speak to some sort of criminal intent? If so, how are cops being issued it?

SERIOUSLY?

Yes, all the major ammunition manufacturers are making BILLIONS of rounds of JHP only for the criminals. Did you even try to rub a couple of brain cells together before posting that ridiculousness?

 

[I Dont Care About You]

higher end defensive ammo will have nickle plated brass, reduces friction in the mag and chamber aiding to more reliability.

No. Reducing friction in the chamber would be a bad idea as the gun is balanced to cycle reliably, taking into account, slide weight, spring weight and the drag of the case in the chamber.

The reason LE duty ammo is nickel plated is because it sits in the gun and magazine and mag pouch for months to years in good weather and bad and brass cases will corrode under those conditions.

That's all fine and good if you live in a country where excellent reliable hollow points are readily available at decent prices but if you don't reside there then all of a sudden the most effective FMJ which is readily available at decent prices takes on a whole new perspective.

The first question I always ask the 9 mm fanboys is "So how many of these magic cartridges do you have stocked?"
The answer inevitably is not very many or perhaps none at all (due to cost and availability). My rejoiner is then "Well then do you think that maybe then one should gravitate to the most cost effective ammo that is widely available that will still do an acceptable job?

So what you are saying is the FBI ballistics lab is wrong and the biggest gun is the best?

How much defence ammo does one need to buy? How much of it are you planning to use?

Yes, it's expensive but one only needs a box or two of the stuff any everyone can afford that much. Buy a couple of boxes and run them through the gun to ensure it cycles reliably, then keep a magazine or maybe two of the stuff for that rainy day when things go bad.

 

[870P]

these debates have been around longer than most people here have been born. But one thing is that modern 9mm (and by modern I mean since the 1970s) is that 9mm has been preferred by more professionals than the .45. If you're looking for suppressed handguns, I am going to hand it over to the .45ACP since many .45ACP loads are subsonic by default, and a subsonic 9mm will lose more striking power compared to it.

But even in terms of suppressed guns, there are very specialized handguns such as the OTs-38 that make little more than dry firing sounds when firing live ammo. I wish I could have one of those revolvers, they're simply too damn cool!

I've known quite a few guys, including a friend of mine who was a 25 year Detroit PD veteran, and my uncle who was a 27 year LASD veteran, who were in a good position to compare, and nearly of all them greatly favored the .45 over the 9mm of the era.

It really wasn't until the 2000s when 9mm bullet technology had improved to the point where it started to perform equivalently to the other duty calibers, largely thanks to a whopping 70% of defensive handgun bullet R&D being devoted towards the caliber for the last couple of decades.

 

[Big Bad]

I've known quite a few guys, including a friend of mine who was a 25 year Detroit PD veteran, and my uncle who was a 27 year LASD veteran, who were in a good position to compare, and nearly of all them greatly favored the .45 over the 9mm of the era.

It really wasn't until the 2000s when 9mm bullet technology had improved to the point where it started to perform equivalently to the other duty calibers, largely thanks to a whopping 70% of defensive handgun bullet R&D being devoted towards the caliber for the last couple of decades.

I do believe the big issue with the .45 auto is the greatly reduced capacity, or every LEO would be shooting them.

 

[870P]

I do believe the big issue with the .45 auto is the greatly reduced capacity, or every LEO would be shooting them.

High capacity .45s have been a thing since about 1990, the problem is that they are harder to shoot well and require a significantly larger gun to shoot it out of, compounded by the higher cost of ammunition.

 

[badboybeeson]

Let me guess after a 40 years study they worked out that shot placement is everything......

 

[870P]

Let me guess after a 40 years study they worked out that shot placement is everything......

The shot placement of the 9mm Silvertip round that hit Michael Platt was decent, it just underpenetrated, stopping an inch from his heart, which is what kicked this whole thing off.

 

[bearhunter]

I think that the point is that 9 mm rounds became highly developed enough that the other higher calibre rounds were no longer even equal to them. But you do have to buy the special police rounds (if you can find them here), the target stuff just never changes.

Nope, the point was they started using 147 grain bullets, which are long/heavy for that cartridge.

I have some 147 cal, fmj, 9mm bullets, and did some "home tests" to see which would penetrate deeper into some plywood blocks, I picked up from the local pallet maker's scrap bins.

They were six inches square, by 1 foot long, and were made from a bunch of half inch thick fir plywood, glued together.

I shot one each with 124 gr fmj, and 147 gr fmj.

Neither of the bullets penetrated the full length of the pillars. Both of the bullets retained their full weight.

Both bullets tumbled and stopped about an inch afterwards.

The 124 grain bullet did more damage to the pillar for about 3 inches, but stopped around 4 inches.

The 147 grain bullet created a smaller channel, but penetrated almost 6 inches.

I repeated the test a couple of times, and the results were the same in the media I used.

Both bullets started tumbling when energy bled off, which stopped further penetration almost immediately.

My tests were nothing to compare to the lab results, but anyone who has used heavy for caliber bullets knows this is almost always the case when two different bullet weights of similar construction are compared for performance.

 

[Craig0ry]

No. Reducing friction in the chamber would be a bad idea as the gun is balanced to cycle reliably, taking into account, slide weight, spring weight and the drag of the case in the chamber.

The reason LE duty ammo is nickel plated is because it sits in the gun and magazine and mag pouch for months to years in good weather and bad and brass cases will corrode under those conditions.



So what you are saying is the FBI ballistics lab is wrong and the biggest gun is the best?

How much defence ammo does one need to buy? How much of it are you planning to use?

Yes, it's expensive but one only needs a box or two of the stuff any everyone can afford that much. Buy a couple of boxes and run them through the gun to ensure it cycles reliably, then keep a magazine or maybe two of the stuff for that rainy day when things go bad.

It definitely is also designed for lubricity for feeding and extraction as well as corrosion.

 

[milkbone96]

Are LEO's using hollow points as duty ammo?

In my neck of the woods, yes. Winchester Ranger .40 S&W is one of the more popular flavours I've seen.

 

[milkbone96]

Hollow points and centre-of-mass aiming would go hand-in-hand with the good guys wearing body armor and the bad guys generally not. And the occasional blue-on-blue misunderstanding does happen, and confirmation the vest worked is better than other ways that could play out.

Work for Niagara?!

 

[I Dont Care About You]

I do believe the big issue with the .45 auto is the greatly reduced capacity, or every LEO would be shooting them.

I did a bunch of terminal testing on a variety of different bullets in both 9mm and 45. The primary limitation with 45 is that it is so big and opens up so huge, but is also going very slowly, that it doesn't penetrate nearly as well as modern 147gr 9mm.

Let me guess after a 40 years study they worked out that shot placement is everything......

Shot placement and bullet construction are the keys.

It turns out that 9mm is easier to shoot and thus makes shot placement easier and more likely.