The FBI Just Settled the 9mm vs .40 vs .45 Debate

[Rick]

The first question I always ask the 9 mm fanboys is "So how many of these magic cartridges do you have stocked?"
The answer inevitably is not very many or perhaps none at all (due to cost and availability). My rejoiner is then "Well then do you think that maybe then one should gravitate to the most cost effective ammo that is widely available.

I always ask the clever .45 ACP fanboys telling me something like that why they're so sure that (a) police service ammunition will be impossible to buy at reasonable prices (and it isn't), and;

(b) why they want to convince me they're better off choosing .45 ACP when all the professional gun carriers and trigger pullers are renouncing their choice and carrying 9mms?

There's always a rational real world answer to clever rejoiners that are usually just a strawman they want to fight their battle against.

 

[Rick]

Imagine caring about what rounds the pedo protectors are using in the US, while living in a country that is disarming us . lol...

President Daddy-Daughter Inappropriate White House Incest Showers isn't still in office protecting those pedos trying to trans kids and walk into little girls change rooms.

Populist political thinking and emotional responses is what gets us to where we are today. No lol... about that on either side of the border.

 

[dan belisle]

I always ask the clever .45 ACP fanboys telling me something like that why they're so sure that (a) police service ammunition will be impossible to buy at reasonable prices (and it isn't), and;

(b) why they want to convince me they're better off choosing .45 ACP when all the professional gun carriers and trigger pullers are renouncing their choice and carrying 9mms?

There's always a rational real world answer to clever rejoiners that are usually just a strawman they want to fight their battle against.

Winter coats. 45 hardball penetrates better than 9mm jhp's. - dan

 

[Painkillers]

I always ask the clever .45 ACP fanboys telling me something like that why they're so sure that (a) police service ammunition will be impossible to buy at reasonable prices (and it isn't), and;

(b) why they want to convince me they're better off choosing .45 ACP when all the professional gun carriers and trigger pullers are renouncing their choice and carrying 9mms?

There's always a rational real world answer to clever rejoiners that are usually just a strawman they want to fight their battle against.

Uh, idk that I'm a fanboy...but I can shoot my G21 like a house on fire, my G17 I can't hit the broad side of a barn with. 1911's, again, I just shoot them very well, I have a High Power that I'm competent with, but nothing like my 1911's.

It might be the platforms (the G21 is a gen 3, the G17 is a gen 5), or that I just shoot .45 acp better? Idk why, but it just works for me. I prefer the caliber over 9mm.

 

[1riot1ranger]

Garand Thumb has a great YouTube a couple of videos about the effectiveness and expansion of 9mm rounds.

The one assumption everyone makes is that the 9mm JHP actually expands. In one of his videos he shoots through clothing and several of the rounds are fouled with fabric and do not expand.

I’d say that if the 9mm round expands, it’s probably superior to 45ACP. But if it doesn’t…. Not all 9mm JHP is equally effective.

 

[I Dont Care About You]

Garand Thumb has a great YouTube a couple of videos about the effectiveness and expansion of 9mm rounds.

The one assumption everyone makes is that the 9mm JHP actually expands. In one of his videos he shoots through clothing and several of the rounds are fouled with fabric and do not expand.

I’d say that if the 9mm round expands, it’s probably superior to 45ACP. But if it doesn’t…. Not all 9mm JHP is equally effective.

For sure this is an issue. We did a bunch of testing on many different types of JHP and a bunch of them definitely do not expand when the hollow point cavity is full of fabric.

However there are JHPs that expand reliably pretty much no matter what they are shot through. There are also polycarbonate tipped HPs that are not affected by fabric.

The best 9mm JHP I tested was the Remington Golden Sabre. That thing opens up regardless of what it passes through and it opens up massively and consistently. We never had one fail.

 

[Rick]

Winter coats. 45 hardball penetrates better than 9mm jhp's. - dan

You just need to convince the terminal ballisticians working for the brands that were under Vista that supposedly makes a difference. The companies that employ them are happy to sell your agency whatever caliber tickles your fancy - they offer all the service calibers. With the hundreds of reviews of police shootings they do each year, they see no significant difference: but they'll happily sell you their best offerings in whatever caliber you are convinced are best.

http://www.le.vistaoutdoor.com/wound_ballistics/default.aspx

 

[dan belisle]

You just need to convince the terminal ballisticians working for the brands that were under Vista that supposedly makes a difference. The companies that employ them are happy to sell your agency whatever caliber tickles your fancy - they offer all the service calibers. With the hundreds of reviews of police shootings they do each year, they see no significant difference: but they'll happily sell you their best offerings in whatever caliber you are convinced are best.

http://www.le.vistaoutdoor.com/wound_ballistics/default.aspx

Doesn't change my statement, or the facts. In some instances, a bigger hole from hardball is better than no hole from jhp's. - dan

 

[Rick]

Doesn't change my statement, or the facts. In some instances, a bigger hole from hardball is better than no hole from jhp's. - dan

Your statement of opinion doesn't change the findings of the ballisticians working at those companies that are constantly reviewing the results of instances where their (and other) ammunition was used - not just working with ballistic gelatin. They do so in order to to keep up with their competitors who are also developing and selling service ammunition of all calibers to law enforcement all over the world.

For all of them, if a police force has a belief that .45 ACP is a superior caliber for law enforcement, they'll happily sell that caliber as well. Or if they prefer, 40 S&W or .357 Sig.

They will also tell you that with their ongoing reviews of the performance of current bullet designs in the main law enforcement caliber choices, there is no discernible difference between service handgun calibers in police shootings. Unless you want to argue on behalf of hardball in any caliber, versus expanding designs.

There's a reason .45 ACP is on the verge of disappearing from the law enforcement world, and it isn't because the deeply rooted American passion for that caliber has disappeared. To a lesser extent the .40 S&W and .357 Sig that appeared to address the 9mm issue 40+ years ago are also fading as far as the number of law enforcement agencies making it their choice.

That said, this is probably the "What's the best oil to use in my motorcycle?" issue of the handgun world and that won't change during my lifetime. The fact that there are other issues folded in with caliber choice (magazine capacity being just one) ensures this will keep going on.

The guys working for Federal, Speer, Winchester, Hornady, etc down in their labs developing and improving designs and going over empirical data coming back from the law enforcement world aren't much interested in that debate in the civilian world. They will sell you or a police department whatever caliber you want. They will also tell you, if asked what caliber is better, that they have not found any difference.

 

[dan belisle]

Your statement of opinion doesn't change the findings of the ballisticians working at those companies that are constantly reviewing the results of instances where their (and other) ammunition was used - not just working with ballistic gelatin. They do so in order to to keep up with their competitors who are also developing and selling service ammunition of all calibers to law enforcement all over the world.

For all of them, if a police force has a belief that .45 ACP is a superior caliber for law enforcement, they'll happily sell that caliber as well. Or if they prefer, 40 S&W or .357 Sig.

They will also tell you that with their ongoing reviews of the performance of current bullet designs in the main law enforcement caliber choices, there is no discernible difference between service handgun calibers in police shootings. Unless you want to argue on behalf of hardball in any caliber, versus expanding designs.

There's a reason .45 ACP is on the verge of disappearing from the law enforcement world, and it isn't because the deeply rooted American passion for that caliber has disappeared. To a lesser extent the .40 S&W and .357 Sig that appeared to address the 9mm issue 40+ years ago are also fading as far as the number of law enforcement agencies making it their choice.

That said, this is probably the "What's the best oil to use in my motorcycle?" issue of the handgun world and that won't change during my lifetime. The fact that there are other issues folded in with caliber choice (magazine capacity being just one) ensures this will keep going on.

The guys working for Federal, Speer, Winchester, Hornady, etc down in their labs developing and improving designs and going over empirical data coming back from the law enforcement world aren't much interested in that debate in the civilian world. They will sell you or a police department whatever caliber you want. They will also tell you, if asked what caliber is better, that they have not found any difference.

Take some old winter coats out, and test it yourself. It is what it is. - dan

 

[Rick]

Take some old winter coats out, and test it yourself. It is what it is. - dan

Why would I have a belief that I (or any other amateur Kitchen Table Ballistican) is better at doing that than those professional ballisticians at Speer, Federal, Winchester, etc who have been doing that for well over 20 years?

I think they've been onto a few things during that time.

1. Contrary to belief stemming from circa 1980, today's 9mm hollow point ammunition expands just fine going through heavy clothing.

2. The new math says that .64" bullet with all those jagged edges is a greater diameter than the .45" of nice sleek pointy hardball.

3. Those that believe that .45 hardball is the GOAT will discover none of them offer .45 ACP service ammunition in hardball option.



As you said: it is what it is.

And 9mm service ammunition over the last few decades will penetrate your old winter coats and expand just fine after doing so. Just as it will after going through automobile windshields, plywood, drywall, vehicle sheet metal, etc.

Yup... they've all been testing their service ammunition with that as well.

 

[Painkillers]

Why would I have a belief that I (or any other amateur Kitchen Table Ballistican) is better at doing that than those professional ballisticians at Speer, Federal, Winchester, etc who have been doing that for well over 20 years?

I think they've been onto a few things during that time.

1. Contrary to belief stemming from circa 1980, today's 9mm hollow point ammunition expands just fine going through heavy clothing.

2. The new math says that .64" bullet with all those jagged edges is a greater diameter than the .45" of nice sleek pointy hardball.

3. Those that believe that .45 hardball is the GOAT will discover none of them offer .45 ACP service ammunition in hardball option.

View attachment 1091392

As you said: it is what it is.

And 9mm service ammunition over the last few decades will penetrate your old winter coats and expand just fine after doing so. Just as it will after going through automobile windshields, plywood, drywall, vehicle sheet metal, etc.

Yup... they've all been testing their service ammunition with that as well.

Ball ammunition is military. Military ammunition, by design, is intended to prevent expanding due to agreed conventions as to how warfare is to be conducted.

Ballistic performance comparisons between ball ammo and dum-dum, hollow point or otherwise expanding ammo isn't an apples to apples situation.

If high performance 9mm expands to 0.64", the compare that to what say Speer Gold Dot will do in .45acp.

 

[I Dont Care About You]

Doesn't change my statement, or the facts. In some instances, a bigger hole from hardball is better than no hole from jhp's. - dan

It wouldn't be "no hole" from the 9mm. A clogged up 9mm JHP becomes a more or less non-expanding ball round and will penetrate quite well. So there will be a hole, it'll just be a bit smaller than the 45 hole.

For a long time, it has been recognized that the quality of the hole is not nearly as important as the location and number of holes. In that regard, 9mm is superior because most guns will carry more 9mm ammo and it is easier to shoot and make good hits. THAT is what the FBI guy is all about.

 

[dan belisle]

Why would I have a belief that I (or any other amateur Kitchen Table Ballistican) is better at doing that than those professional ballisticians at Speer, Federal, Winchester, etc who have been doing that for well over 20 years?

I think they've been onto a few things during that time.

1. Contrary to belief stemming from circa 1980, today's 9mm hollow point ammunition expands just fine going through heavy clothing.

2. The new math says that .64" bullet with all those jagged edges is a greater diameter than the .45" of nice sleek pointy hardball.

3. Those that believe that .45 hardball is the GOAT will discover none of them offer .45 ACP service ammunition in hardball option.

View attachment 1091392

As you said: it is what it is.

And 9mm service ammunition over the last few decades will penetrate your old winter coats and expand just fine after doing so. Just as it will after going through automobile windshields, plywood, drywall, vehicle sheet metal, etc.

Yup... they've all been testing their service ammunition with that as well.

They sell a product. Of course they'll tell you it's better than sliced bread. I prefer to get data that was parsed from actual shootings. Harder to find though. But no problem, this is all hypothetical here in the great white north. - dan

 

[dan belisle]

It wouldn't be "no hole" from the 9mm. A clogged up 9mm JHP becomes a more or less non-expanding ball round and will penetrate quite well. So there will be a hole, it'll just be a bit smaller than the 45 hole.

For a long time, it has been recognized that the quality of the hole is not nearly as important as the location and number of holes. In that regard, 9mm is superior because most guns will carry more 9mm ammo and it is easier to shoot and make good hits. THAT is what the FBI guy is all about.

Then bigger holes are better than smaller holes. Hitting is the shooters job. If all they can hit well with is a 9mm, then I guess that's the choice for them. The 40 was supposed to be the compromise that covered all the bases (after the 10mm over reaction by the fbi) but we all saw how that turned out. - dan

 

[I Dont Care About You]

Then bigger holes are better than smaller holes. Hitting is the shooters job. If all they can hit well with is a 9mm, then I guess that's the choice for them. The 40 was supposed to be the compromise that covered all the bases (after the 10mm over reaction by the fbi) but we all saw how that turned out. - dan

Yes and the FBI discovered that more of their people could score more hits faster with a 9mm than with any other caliber .... hence the return to 9mm.

All that is discussed if you watched the video?

 

[ffolkes]

I await the return to 3 inch 357 magnum revolvers after the next 9mm ammo failure and need to change everything.

 

[dan belisle]

Yes and the FBI discovered that more of their people could score more hits faster with a 9mm than with any other caliber .... hence the return to 9mm.

All that is discussed if you watched the video?

Following that logic, shouldn't they switch to 22's? After all, they will score better, and make more small holes. - dan

 

[870P]

9x19 is the best choice for an agency, but I would still take .45 ACP as a personal carry choice, assuming we're talking out of a full sized handgun.

Those big bullets are a confidence booster, and I''ve heard enough from credible people who were in actual gunfights to believe that that confidence is warranted as long as it's loaded properly.