Gentlemen,
I've been meaning to make this thread for a while, but it's always hard to get out to a quiet range day! This morning however I booked a couple hours for just me myself and I and sat down to do a comparison on Carcano ammunition available for purchase, and to do a test for publication on Carcano accuracy for posterity. I think the Carcano rifles are seriously under appreciated and are capable of holding their own against many comparable milsurp rifles available to us today, and I hope this thread helps you decide on adding one to your locker
So, here are the details of the shooting environment:
- Cloudy, low wind speed ~5/10km north to north west,
- pressure was dropping throughout the day
- cold, started the day at negative 19c ended at about negative 2c
- range distances all at 100 meters
- target used was NRA 100yard smallbore rifle standard
- shoot off my hiking bag as a rest (very precise trust me)
I started off with a box of Prvi Partizan 139 grain FMJ ammunition. Specs are:
Prvi Partizan B-083 FMJ round - 0.263 diameter
Now, there is a lot of talk about Carcano bore differences and factory ammunition tolerances which is why this test is important. Most Carcano bores are slightly larger then the 0.263-0.264 factory ammunition we find available to us off the shelf. However, the M91/41 often slugs smaller then other Carcanos in this matter, with marksmen marked (crossed rifle) stamped receivers/ being even more precise (can be found as low as 0.25 and change!). My 91/41 is not a marksmen marked rifle, so it is safe to assume (although for more detailed comparison a bore slug would have been nice but I completely forgot about such things; if you reload for your Carcano this is a must though!) that the bore is anywhere between 0.266-0.268. The M91/41 does not have the gain-twist rifling you will find in most other Carcanos, all of which will benefit from a heavier grainage bullet thanks to this but in our case, not necessary.
So, knowing that our ammo is a 0.263 FMJ round and our bore is somewhat larger you can see where this is going...however...
Testing and grouping results:
20 rounds fired
11 rounds struck high, between 5-8 inches over target
8 rounds struck paper
6 struck the bull of the paper
1 round struck low
Grouping average: 5 and 3/4 of an inch roughly with 2 outlier pulled shots off-bull
so why the high group bud?
Well, this comes down to how you aim the Carcano! The sights on the M91/41 have a 200-meter fixed battle sight, and your elevation adjusters are flipped back onto the the battle sight for 300 meters and above. See picture:
The next very important thing with your Carcano is the sight picture. It is very strange! Allow this picture to demonstrate the proper Carcano sight picture for 100 meter shooting utilizing incredible high-resolution image recreation technology:
So that's why you see lots of high shots with a Carcano! I had to do some diggin on the right sight alignment and picture with the Carcano, but I have found this to work excellently. There are a few great internet publications on the rifle, as well as an excellent book on the subject which delves into this deeper. It takes some time to get use to this, and many Carcanos may actually not use this sight picture due to filing and grinding of the sights themselves, but in an unmodified rifle you should find this perfectly helps you get shots on target.
So after using the box of Prvi to determine our proper sight picture and getting shots into the bull, I decide to bust out the Norma ammunition.
Specs: 156 grain Norma Alaskan SP bullet, diameter of 0.264
So you can see that this ammo is a little larger, however still falls within the realm of what the internet may claim as being "way too small for Carcanos". Well, here are the results of today's shooting:
12 rounds fired
12 rounds on paper
9 on bull of paper
group average size: 3 inches and change
best 3-shot group was under one inch!!!
So with this testing, you can see that the point of impact tightened up quite a bit compared to the lighter 139 grain FMJ rounds. Although the 0.264 round is more then likely a little small for the bore, it's heavier grainage and increased length allows for more contact with the bore, which keeps the round stabilized. The FMJ with it's mild spitzer point also does not help: Carcano actions were not designed for that! Compared to the ball SP rounds, the spitzer FMJ from Prvi reduced available contact with the bore even more due to the tapered point. After testing the Norma I was so impressed I kept the rest of the box so that way on my next range trip with my Carcano I can take video evidence of these changes between the two ammo types, and possibly a third type I may have found out there in my searchings...but that will be an addition to this post when that day comes.
so what can we learn from this
Here are the quick and dirty bullet points on this data as I interpret it:
- The M91/41 benefits from heavier ammo at 100 meters. Will need further testing at 200+
- the Prvi ammo can get on paper, but seems much more errant in it's FMJ form then the SP Norma although diameters are kind of comparable
- the sight system on the Carcano, once figured out, can get you hits on target
- the 200m battle sight is an add duck and requires subtler adjustments compared to other milsurps
- neither round showed any keyholing which is something the internet was awash with the other scant info we have on these comparisons
- This test, although applicable to the M91/41, does leave out the many carbines and 1891 series rifles
- M91/41's saw less action then other Italian rifles and thus in general have tighter bores, made even tighter by marksmen tolerances on some rifles
- reloaders will benefit with a bore sluggin for sure due to the above points
- The top tip I got for these rifles "aim for the balls if you want to hit em' in the heart" carries some merit!
I hope after reading this long ol' post maybe you learned a little something from my practical testing of this rifle. I have another ammo type to try yet which I will add as an epilogue to this post at some point, as well as collect video and photographic support. I had actually brought my camera with me but I'm pretty smart and didn't charge the battery in my overwhelming need to freeze my butt off and shoot single rounds for an hour and trudge down to check each and every shot because I didn't bring a spotting scope.
If you have any other experiences with this, especially if you recorded shot data and load/ammo data you can add for information gathering sake, feel free to post it! Hopefully we can help Carcano shooters get that little bit extra out of our lovely little guns.
I've been meaning to make this thread for a while, but it's always hard to get out to a quiet range day! This morning however I booked a couple hours for just me myself and I and sat down to do a comparison on Carcano ammunition available for purchase, and to do a test for publication on Carcano accuracy for posterity. I think the Carcano rifles are seriously under appreciated and are capable of holding their own against many comparable milsurp rifles available to us today, and I hope this thread helps you decide on adding one to your locker
So, here are the details of the shooting environment:
- Cloudy, low wind speed ~5/10km north to north west,
- pressure was dropping throughout the day
- cold, started the day at negative 19c ended at about negative 2c
- range distances all at 100 meters
- target used was NRA 100yard smallbore rifle standard
- shoot off my hiking bag as a rest (very precise trust me)
I started off with a box of Prvi Partizan 139 grain FMJ ammunition. Specs are:
Prvi Partizan B-083 FMJ round - 0.263 diameter
Now, there is a lot of talk about Carcano bore differences and factory ammunition tolerances which is why this test is important. Most Carcano bores are slightly larger then the 0.263-0.264 factory ammunition we find available to us off the shelf. However, the M91/41 often slugs smaller then other Carcanos in this matter, with marksmen marked (crossed rifle) stamped receivers/ being even more precise (can be found as low as 0.25 and change!). My 91/41 is not a marksmen marked rifle, so it is safe to assume (although for more detailed comparison a bore slug would have been nice but I completely forgot about such things; if you reload for your Carcano this is a must though!) that the bore is anywhere between 0.266-0.268. The M91/41 does not have the gain-twist rifling you will find in most other Carcanos, all of which will benefit from a heavier grainage bullet thanks to this but in our case, not necessary.
So, knowing that our ammo is a 0.263 FMJ round and our bore is somewhat larger you can see where this is going...however...
Testing and grouping results:
20 rounds fired
11 rounds struck high, between 5-8 inches over target
8 rounds struck paper
6 struck the bull of the paper
1 round struck low
Grouping average: 5 and 3/4 of an inch roughly with 2 outlier pulled shots off-bull
so why the high group bud?
Well, this comes down to how you aim the Carcano! The sights on the M91/41 have a 200-meter fixed battle sight, and your elevation adjusters are flipped back onto the the battle sight for 300 meters and above. See picture:
The next very important thing with your Carcano is the sight picture. It is very strange! Allow this picture to demonstrate the proper Carcano sight picture for 100 meter shooting utilizing incredible high-resolution image recreation technology:
So that's why you see lots of high shots with a Carcano! I had to do some diggin on the right sight alignment and picture with the Carcano, but I have found this to work excellently. There are a few great internet publications on the rifle, as well as an excellent book on the subject which delves into this deeper. It takes some time to get use to this, and many Carcanos may actually not use this sight picture due to filing and grinding of the sights themselves, but in an unmodified rifle you should find this perfectly helps you get shots on target.
So after using the box of Prvi to determine our proper sight picture and getting shots into the bull, I decide to bust out the Norma ammunition.
Specs: 156 grain Norma Alaskan SP bullet, diameter of 0.264
So you can see that this ammo is a little larger, however still falls within the realm of what the internet may claim as being "way too small for Carcanos". Well, here are the results of today's shooting:
12 rounds fired
12 rounds on paper
9 on bull of paper
group average size: 3 inches and change
best 3-shot group was under one inch!!!
So with this testing, you can see that the point of impact tightened up quite a bit compared to the lighter 139 grain FMJ rounds. Although the 0.264 round is more then likely a little small for the bore, it's heavier grainage and increased length allows for more contact with the bore, which keeps the round stabilized. The FMJ with it's mild spitzer point also does not help: Carcano actions were not designed for that! Compared to the ball SP rounds, the spitzer FMJ from Prvi reduced available contact with the bore even more due to the tapered point. After testing the Norma I was so impressed I kept the rest of the box so that way on my next range trip with my Carcano I can take video evidence of these changes between the two ammo types, and possibly a third type I may have found out there in my searchings...but that will be an addition to this post when that day comes.
so what can we learn from this
Here are the quick and dirty bullet points on this data as I interpret it:
- The M91/41 benefits from heavier ammo at 100 meters. Will need further testing at 200+
- the Prvi ammo can get on paper, but seems much more errant in it's FMJ form then the SP Norma although diameters are kind of comparable
- the sight system on the Carcano, once figured out, can get you hits on target
- the 200m battle sight is an add duck and requires subtler adjustments compared to other milsurps
- neither round showed any keyholing which is something the internet was awash with the other scant info we have on these comparisons
- This test, although applicable to the M91/41, does leave out the many carbines and 1891 series rifles
- M91/41's saw less action then other Italian rifles and thus in general have tighter bores, made even tighter by marksmen tolerances on some rifles
- reloaders will benefit with a bore sluggin for sure due to the above points
- The top tip I got for these rifles "aim for the balls if you want to hit em' in the heart" carries some merit!
I hope after reading this long ol' post maybe you learned a little something from my practical testing of this rifle. I have another ammo type to try yet which I will add as an epilogue to this post at some point, as well as collect video and photographic support. I had actually brought my camera with me but I'm pretty smart and didn't charge the battery in my overwhelming need to freeze my butt off and shoot single rounds for an hour and trudge down to check each and every shot because I didn't bring a spotting scope.
If you have any other experiences with this, especially if you recorded shot data and load/ammo data you can add for information gathering sake, feel free to post it! Hopefully we can help Carcano shooters get that little bit extra out of our lovely little guns.
