RevolverRodger
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
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- Somewhere in QC
A few couch commandos know better then the military from canada/ usa/netherlands etc... who chose this rifle.
The Mad Ogre: Why I Hate The AR15
- Thread starter Glenfilthie
- Start date
dangertree
Business Rep
- Location
- NL/ON/FL/PL
What do they say about a little bit of knowledge being a dangerous thing?Morpheus32 said:
I recently received an email from a customer saying he has been really happy with his 16" AR-15 carbines performance/accuracy, but is now worried because he read (here) that normal carbine length systems are prone to failure and early bolt damage. He wanted my reccomendation whether I could help him find someone to redrill the upper to midlength (two inch longer gas tube), or if he should leave it and let the warranty handle the 'upcoming problems'.
Sigh.....
Amazeing anyone lives carrying a M4/C8/C8SWF into combat.
dangertree said:What do they say about a little bit of knowledge being a dangerous thing?
I recently received an email from a customer saying he has been really happy with his 16" AR-15 carbines performance/accuracy, but is now worried because he read (here) that normal carbine length systems are prone to failure and early bolt damage. He wanted my reccomendation whether I could help him find someone to redrill the upper to midlength (two inch longer gas tube), or if he should leave it and let the warranty handle the 'upcoming problems'.
Sigh.....
Amazeing anyone lives carrying a M4/C8/C8SWF into combat.
LoL ------------
Hey Walter --- This is what you get from the internet
"The internet is full of all kinds of information.
Some of it may be good, some of it is truly bad.
But remember one thing, most of this information is free
and usually, you will get what you pay for."
RevolverRodger said:
And the naive think that a rifle's performance is th sole reason these powers standardized on the AR platform.
I'll be the first to admit that I know ####-all about combat situations or combat arms, but it seems to me that if I had to trust my life to a rifle, I could do worse than with an AR. Hell, I'd even have an advantage - I'm not military, and would have zero qualms about using hollow-point or PSP expanding hunting bullets on combatants.
I imagine similar Ross vs Enfield debates taking place almost a century ago. Precision engineering, wicked accuracy sporter-grade arms vs fast, rugged battle-grade arms
My fault dangertree. 
If I remember correctly, I said that the carbine-length will experience bolt failure under large-volume full-auto or rapid fire sooner than a longer system. I then agreed that this is not a problem in Canada due to our 5-round rule.
I'm sorry for starting a rumour
If I remember correctly, I said that the carbine-length will experience bolt failure under large-volume full-auto or rapid fire sooner than a longer system. I then agreed that this is not a problem in Canada due to our 5-round rule.
I'm sorry for starting a rumour
Too many armchair, self proclaim experts on the web.
M16/C7/C8/AR familiy are proven. This weapon system is more versatile, accurate than any AK's will be.
Web junkies should listen to REAL users instead a making bad ass judgment on something they do not know.
This remind me of a Norinco lover on this site, who did not own or owned one, never used one and was arguing about their quality and accuracy...ya..right on CGN..so reader beware.
M16/C7/C8/AR familiy are proven. This weapon system is more versatile, accurate than any AK's will be.
Web junkies should listen to REAL users instead a making bad ass judgment on something they do not know.
This remind me of a Norinco lover on this site, who did not own or owned one, never used one and was arguing about their quality and accuracy...ya..right on CGN..so reader beware.
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Have the people we shot with the AR FOW been complaining?
I have never shot anyone with an AR type rifle, only witnessed it first hand; our guys fired. The bad guy fell down and died. Questions?
Having said that, I have a bias to .308, as it makes bad guys fall down dead as well.
Guess I will have to buy an AR-10T I wish it had been issued alongside the C3.....
Cheers,
Ben
I have never shot anyone with an AR type rifle, only witnessed it first hand; our guys fired. The bad guy fell down and died. Questions?
Having said that, I have a bias to .308, as it makes bad guys fall down dead as well.
Guess I will have to buy an AR-10T
I wish it had been issued alongside the C3.....Cheers,
Ben
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screw you pal! DON'T EVER compare your AR to my PE !!!! in fact don;t ever mention it in the same sentence!!!
(my gas pressure was set wrong... is that why the casing spun around in the action?)oh yeah I am keepin my PE90 *whew* almost sold it until I read this thread
Owning expensive guns is a turmoil all its own , I vote for da AK - I saw a video of it being run over then fired... not shure an AR would do that.
However its like buddy says, its a team effort. One tool for a a very specific purpose. Personally I stick to my G36C, I have almost 1500 confirmed kills and it has NEVER jammed on me. Sometimes I just use my knife.
http://bf2s.com/player/27304244/
oh yeaaaahhhhhh!
f7
Well, clearly, the AR family has its followers.
As I said before - You are welcome to it. As far as spending one's own money on a personal purchase, within legal parameters, I did say: Buy what you like.
To call my opinion one of "ignorance" because I have been blessed never to have been in actual combat, however, is somewhat juvenile.
All weapons systems have shortfalls, somewhere, and you just have to train to deal with whatever the compromise feature is on your particualr issue or purchase item.
My PE90 had about 1800 rounds through it before it's first cleaning, with no stoppages, so, to some, that might indicate it is more reliable than KevB's AR with 1500 rds and one stoppage.... But I am NOT saying that - I was just lucky. I CHOOSE to own the PE90 because I like it.
You carry what brings you confidence, or what you get issued, and try to stay safe out there.
I shall now take my ignorantly tolerant opinion elsewhere, where people won't get all defensive because I happen to disagree with their point of view.
Regards,
Neal
As I said before - You are welcome to it. As far as spending one's own money on a personal purchase, within legal parameters, I did say: Buy what you like.
To call my opinion one of "ignorance" because I have been blessed never to have been in actual combat, however, is somewhat juvenile.
All weapons systems have shortfalls, somewhere, and you just have to train to deal with whatever the compromise feature is on your particualr issue or purchase item.
My PE90 had about 1800 rounds through it before it's first cleaning, with no stoppages, so, to some, that might indicate it is more reliable than KevB's AR with 1500 rds and one stoppage.... But I am NOT saying that - I was just lucky. I CHOOSE to own the PE90 because I like it.
You carry what brings you confidence, or what you get issued, and try to stay safe out there.
I shall now take my ignorantly tolerant opinion elsewhere, where people won't get all defensive because I happen to disagree with their point of view.
Regards,
Neal
nelly said:
Actually, its pretty bang-on.
No offence, but your suggestion that your experience to date with your Sig suggests better reliability than the M4, is not only annecdotal, but has been proven by funded research to be erronous. **edit - reread your post and understand that you say you are just lucky with PED90 reliability - you just own because you like it**
Search Defence Review for the back on this, but after extrensive testing a number of high speed units decided to say F^ck it to the Sig and many other flavors. After highest scores being landed by the M4, they decided that there is no sense replacing the M4 at this point with ANY of the proffered options.
But I dont really want to drag back into that, as there is a more significant point to be made:
You're likely an intelligent guy who puts alot of time and though into your rifle purchasing decisions. I dont know if anyone is suggesting different.
But to use an analogy, you are acting a bit like an amatuer boxer who has been caught giving questionable advice by a few pros. If you really want to prove your point, just get in the ring.
At some point, I think you'll find that you dont have to argue to hard for people to believe your opinion.
Cheers,
Greg
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What I would like to know is how the m16 based rifles would perform under the stress of long term repeated use in the field (ie not the rage or the like). Currently our allies and we are finding ourselves in quite favorable conditions for combat. We have easy access to supplies and weapons techs now but if we were to find ourselves in a more traditional type of combat where forward units have to be more resourceful how would the weapon hold up?
Those who prefer the ak and variants for combat often find themselves operating without easy access to parts and plentiful supplies of weapons etc.
What happens when we face an enemy that can match our "team effort" in the field? What will our impressions of the rifle be then? IDK. My experiance with ones with a few field miles was less then stellar. That said I really like how light it is.
Those who prefer the ak and variants for combat often find themselves operating without easy access to parts and plentiful supplies of weapons etc.
What happens when we face an enemy that can match our "team effort" in the field? What will our impressions of the rifle be then? IDK. My experiance with ones with a few field miles was less then stellar. That said I really like how light it is.
This whole thread is mute cause the Brits still go to battle with the SA80 and they still win with it (battles that is )and the SA80 ain't no "winner" by any standards; but it works and in the end it will still cross the fininsh line almost everytime.
)and the SA80 ain't no "winner" by any standards; but it works and in the end it will still cross the fininsh line almost everytime. MPI said:This whole thread is mute cause the Brits still go to battle with the SA80 and they still win with it (battles that is
I know you're just making a light hearted comment, but in reality the SA-80A2 (which the UK is now carrying) has out-performed the M-16 family in some tests.
The original SA80 on the other hand... (insert former puke icon here)
kirill said:
I got an AR15 earlier this summer and it's my first and only black rifle, modern rifle for that matter as all my others, beside the odd SKS, are WW2 milsurps. I will admit I'm a total AR noob and I have been using hoppe's #9 light pistol oil in my AR and it does just what you describe, dries out and makes the action gritty if I don't clean often.
I don't want to highjack the thread but what is this CLP you speak of? Oil? Cleaner? Where can I get some?
Well since we have a few folks like KevinB and Morpheus32 around, can either of you tell me, has there been any formal/semi-formal discussion of implementing more shotguns for convoy/close-in operations in theater?
Just a few friendly observations:
I find the absolutes some people pin to this 'friendly' discussion more than humourous. It is not that the AR15/M16 basic design 'has to' be the best or the worst, the issue is do 'you' like it, or do people think it 'could' be better. I for one think it could be better, as could the AK47. To then say 'well it saved my life' or 'it kills people' does not deminish the ideal, or lack of ideal qualities of any weapons system. Go back 200 years and people would swear on the rapid fire capability of a Volley gun, so does that mean you can't beat a multi-barrelled black powder front stuffer? Time moves on, systems improve, the M4 has come along way from the original M16s, which have come along way from the M1 Carbs of yore.
As much as it may tweek some others, nor does a systems adoption by any military on earth warrant a lack of questioning its abilities or shortcomings. Hell the US military has wanted to dump the A-10 for over 20 years, and wanted more B1 Bombers, not to mention the Sgt York. It is a pure and utter falacy to think militaries always pick the best of anything for the job (see Ross Rifle in WW1 service as an example, great rifle, tweeked the Mannlicher system, but not ideally suited to combat service).
Finally, questioning someones ability to critique anything, simply because they may not have had the same experiences of another is laughable. I base who's opinion on these boards I value, and those I readily dismiss, based upon 'them', not thier job or where they have been. To think that because someone wears any uniform, or has been in harms way suddenly places thier judgement/rationale above everyone elses is laughable. I have dealt with police, and military who lacked even a basic understanding of firearms, operations, designs and munitions. Thier experience may have given them further insight, but does not render them instant experts of unquestioning knowledge. If you are trying to imply that all people in a uniform know as much about even AR15s as someone like KevinB, I would have to call you on it. KevinBs knowledge on the Ar/Scar platform etc does not come solely from having worn a uniform.
Now, there are a few people on these boards who's opinions I do respect and take as having some gravitas, like Bartok5, Reaper, RobAk, Morpheus32, BMW etc. Namely because they tend to lay out thier views articulately, and with thought. I do not give any of them any extra weight on firearms matters simply because they wear Cadpat or have done tours anywhere, its the man, not his uniform!
To hear the AR platform is doing well in theater is informative, and validated by members who are utilising it, but doesn't mean it is the pinacle of all designs. That said, I still don't like ARs (and semis in general), I find bolts preferable but thats just my .02$, and merely internet chatter on a friendly internet site
Find yourself a copy of the US Military report "m4a1 5.56mm carbine and related systems deficiencies and solutions" (2001). Oh, then look around the net.imagine_74714 said:
Just a few friendly observations:
I find the absolutes some people pin to this 'friendly' discussion more than humourous. It is not that the AR15/M16 basic design 'has to' be the best or the worst, the issue is do 'you' like it, or do people think it 'could' be better. I for one think it could be better, as could the AK47. To then say 'well it saved my life' or 'it kills people' does not deminish the ideal, or lack of ideal qualities of any weapons system. Go back 200 years and people would swear on the rapid fire capability of a Volley gun, so does that mean you can't beat a multi-barrelled black powder front stuffer? Time moves on, systems improve, the M4 has come along way from the original M16s, which have come along way from the M1 Carbs of yore.
As much as it may tweek some others, nor does a systems adoption by any military on earth warrant a lack of questioning its abilities or shortcomings. Hell the US military has wanted to dump the A-10 for over 20 years, and wanted more B1 Bombers, not to mention the Sgt York. It is a pure and utter falacy to think militaries always pick the best of anything for the job (see Ross Rifle in WW1 service as an example, great rifle, tweeked the Mannlicher system, but not ideally suited to combat service).
Finally, questioning someones ability to critique anything, simply because they may not have had the same experiences of another is laughable. I base who's opinion on these boards I value, and those I readily dismiss, based upon 'them', not thier job or where they have been. To think that because someone wears any uniform, or has been in harms way suddenly places thier judgement/rationale above everyone elses is laughable. I have dealt with police, and military who lacked even a basic understanding of firearms, operations, designs and munitions. Thier experience may have given them further insight, but does not render them instant experts of unquestioning knowledge. If you are trying to imply that all people in a uniform know as much about even AR15s as someone like KevinB, I would have to call you on it. KevinBs knowledge on the Ar/Scar platform etc does not come solely from having worn a uniform.
Now, there are a few people on these boards who's opinions I do respect and take as having some gravitas, like Bartok5, Reaper, RobAk, Morpheus32, BMW etc. Namely because they tend to lay out thier views articulately, and with thought. I do not give any of them any extra weight on firearms matters simply because they wear Cadpat or have done tours anywhere, its the man, not his uniform!
To hear the AR platform is doing well in theater is informative, and validated by members who are utilising it, but doesn't mean it is the pinacle of all designs. That said, I still don't like ARs (and semis in general), I find bolts preferable but thats just my .02$, and merely internet chatter on a friendly internet site
