The Mad Ogre: Why I Hate The AR15

[suprathepeg]

BreakFree CLP is the popular brand (and the one carried by my local gun store). IIRC, there are other brands which conform to the CLP specs. That's about all I know
If you buy BreakFree, buy the spray can instead of the drip bottle. It's a PITA (and potentially harmful to your health) to rub it over the action with your fingers.

I once got clp in my eye when cleaning the weapon, needless to say my eye didn't respond nearly as well to it as the rifle. lol

 

[nemesys]

We just need to cut 4" off our barrel and get rid of that badger "stabilizer" handguard and get a real RAS type system.

Why do you want to lose 4"? Is it so that the rifle can be more flexible in it's uses?

 

[Morpheus32]

I was more reffering to the weapon's implimentation, capabilities and caliber then the rifle itself.

This concept does not mean that the 7.62mm is superior or the rifle for that matter. It is yet again using the system of systems approach....just one more tool in the toolbox. It does not mean all troops need them, nor does it say the AR series is not doing what we want it to do. Some people look at the introduction of a designated marksman....which by the way has been around for almost 10 years by last count....and use this as an example of why the AR needs to be replaced. Try clearing a building at night with an M14 and it will be comes adundantly clear about the tool in the toolbox analogy. We are using snipers in Afghanistan with the AR10 in a similar manner....so nothing new but no deep conclusions to be drawn either....

Again the AR series is doing exactly what we need it to do...

Cheers

Jeff

Jeff

 

[imagine_74714]

So, where this argument is boil down to, is weapons are only effective as the person using it. Whether AKs or ARs. Funny how something simple can take so long to sort out
I think ARs are great and that's my opinion, so's other's opinions can defer to mine. For those of us who has no combat experience, we listen carefully to people like Morpheus32 or KevinB, and that adds to our knowledge, I think. I also think Pork shoulder is better than Brisket when BBQing, but some of my firends think I'm out of my mind... Well, like I said, if where you go is to the range and not battle field like KevinB, then we should just love all rifles acording to our taste and leave it at that. Saves a lot of headaches too.

 

[Dosing]

Shotguns have been on general issue for sometime. I am not sure what a shotgun would do for convoy ops as it does not "fit" into the firepower needs. For urban operations, it does have some benefits but the C8 and C7 cover off a lot more in terms of flexiblity.

Thanks again, can you tell me, is it just a standard buckshot load thats being used? If I asked in the shotgun forum I figure it would be lost

KevinB, can you tell me, is anyone trying out Bizons or any of the later AK variants over there, like the 104s etc? Just curious if anyone is doing in theater testing.
TIA

 

[Morpheus32]

KevinB, can you tell me, is anyone trying out Bizons or any of the later AK variants over there, like the 104s etc? Just curious if anyone is doing in theater testing.
TIA

The Taliban personnel in the trials and evaluation section were fortunately killed this week during fighting during operation Medusa. I don't expect to get much in the way of feedback on their latest kit as their testing program has been cancelled for 2006.....

Jeff

 

[USP]

you guys hand out death cards to those who get in your way? Sort of grisly maybe, but it has been popular in other counter insurgency wars.

BTW, as a side note, does the pistol ever see any service or in combat opps is it basically just always on the belt and never moves?

 

[300Spartans]

MADOGRE claims that he hates the AR-15. He points out why he hates it.

Then you read on and you find out that he uses it for three-gun matches

Go figure!!!

I think Ogre is like the rest of us. We're always #####in' about something...but continue to stick with it. Examples need not be mentioned

 

[Glenfilthie]

I am a hack shooter that enjoys weekends on the range with liars, hog washers and gas bags like myself. I also like to talk to the black and green rifle gang when they show up.

Based on my vast experience on the subject, I will say this: I would hate to be on the other side of the AR-15 and the man using it. And if I have to be shot at...based on what I have seen at the range....I would rather be shot at with the AK-47 or the SKS. I feel my survival odds might go up very marginally.

 

[suprathepeg]

I would rather be shot at with the AK-47 or the SKS. I feel my survival odds might go up very marginally.

I would rather not be shot at all, thats just me though.

Considering the impact energy of a 30 calliber bullet I'd take the .223 especially if it didn't hit center of mass. What happens to flesh when a 30 cal hits you is just scarry. Tumbling .223 is pretty scary as well. Damn at the thought of any moderately well placed bullet I shudder, can't be a nice way to die thats for sure.

Jeeze people kill moose and bear with the SKS.

 

[Ltbull01]

What I would like to know is how the m16 based rifles would perform under the stress of long term repeated use in the field (ie not the rage or the like). Currently our allies and we are finding ourselves in quite favorable conditions for combat. We have easy access to supplies and weapons techs now but if we were to find ourselves in a more traditional type of combat where forward units have to be more resourceful how would the weapon hold up?

Those who prefer the ak and variants for combat often find themselves operating without easy access to parts and plentiful supplies of weapons etc.

What happens when we face an enemy that can match our "team effort" in the field? What will our impressions of the rifle be then? IDK. My experiance with ones with a few field miles was less then stellar. That said I really like how light it is.

Yah. Maybe. We had the FN for the cold war - the last time there was an enemy that was supposed to meet our team effort. Suited the times. I would contest that we are in "favourable conditions" now. The conditions are in fact extremely challenging; heat, dust, long road moves, long dismounted moves, etc. I would find it hard to argue that we have good going over there. We and the rifle are in fact operating "under the stress of long term repeated use in the field" and, when you are in a FOB, don't expect supplies immediately. So, what you pose is the current environment.

The world has changed and it will likely be some time until we encounter someone who can meet our capabilities. "Traditional type of combat" ended with the cold war. Security ops, stabilization ops, and medium intensity combat is the current norm. Though Taliban hold up in a village is likely as challenging as anything else. By all reports, the AR is doing just fine. As I said earlier below, we don't hear troops clamouring to drop the C7.

 

[suprathepeg]

The world has changed and it will likely be some time until we encounter someone who can meet our capabilities. "Traditional type of combat" ended with the cold war.

IDK, China would be a worthy adversary.

 

[IntelGDR691]

I have seen a couple of bullet wounds, but the worst was a 12ga at very close distances (head shot)... Red and white stuff were still dropping from the ceilling 1 hour after....

 

[imagine_74714]

Would China still use tactic they used in Korea War? You know, that wall of million soldiers just walking toward the enemy? Short of dropping Daisy Cutter, I don't know any other conventional means of stopping something like that... Sure as hell some hundreds or so artillery would NOT stop that many people.

 

[Throttle_monkey1]

Glenfilthie- I agree. suprathepeg, what I think he meant was that he would rather be shot AT with an SKS or AK vs an AR. I'm not a good shot, but I can nail things pretty easily with my AR compared to my VZ. I couldn't even hit the ground with my SKS. a 30 cal round isn't going to do anything compared to a 5.56 if it harmlessly sails past the target.

 

[suprathepeg]

Would China still use tactic they used in Korea War? You know, that wall of million soldiers just walking toward the enemy? Short of dropping Daisy Cutter, I don't know any other conventional means of stopping something like that... Sure as hell some hundreds or so artillery would NOT stop that many people.

This is way OT but China's mil tech is way advanced compaired to the disparity of the Korean war. Where do you think Iran, Syria, NK, and all those extreamists are getting their weapons and technology from.

 

[Ltbull01]

IDK, China would be a worthy adversary.

What world order are you conjuring up? We can second guess until the cows come home. Besides, how is killing a supposed enemy Chinese soldier any different than killing a Taliban? Maybe lots more targets - that's why we have crew served weapons that we feed belted ammo to. Hmmm - belted ammo.... The latest analysis is the Chinese Army is not very impressive or it would have invaded Taiwan (a modern military similarly equipped as Western militaries) long ago. The Chinoise are not on the radar screen of current adversaries. Maybe a good board game in it, though!

 

[Dosing]

The Taliban personnel in the trials and evaluation section were fortunately killed this week during fighting during operation Medusa. I don't expect to get much in the way of feedback on their latest kit as their testing program has been cancelled for 2006.....

Jeff

LOL

 

[suprathepeg]

What world order are you conjuring up? We can second guess until the cows come home. Besides, how is killing a supposed enemy Chinese soldier any different than killing a Taliban? Maybe lots more targets - that's why we have crew served weapons that we feed belted ammo to. Hmmm - belted ammo.... The latest analysis is the Chinese Army is not very impressive or it would have invaded Taiwan (a modern military similarly equipped as Western militaries) long ago. The Chinoise are not on the radar screen of current adversaries. Maybe a good board game in it, though!

Fighting the urge to go OT, fighting the urge to go OT

All I will say is in seven years Germany went from a $hithole to the most advanced army in the world. Second guessing ourselves is what keeps us alive. Its when we stop looking ahead that we begin to fail.

 

[imagine_74714]

The latest analysis is the Chinese Army is not very impressive or it would have invaded Taiwan (a modern military similarly equipped as Western militaries) long ago. The Chinoise are not on the radar screen of current adversaries.

I don't know where you have read latest analysis from, but Chinese's decision to delay their action against Taiwan has nothing to do with their lack of military capability, but rather political. There are reports that massive monetary injection into China interior from Taiwan, from all the Old Guards who wants to return their family back into China, as their condition improves with part free enterprise being allowed.
Chinese army may not be impressive, but they have nukes and all the neccessary number of weapons, though outdated. If you are engaed in conventional warfare, what area you may lack, you make up in other places, don't you? And I don't think ability to raise million soldiers at a moment's notice isn't something to take lightly. But that's just my personal take.