The Milsurp 7.65mm-Who Can Explain Them?

lawn gnome

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I know of a 7.65mm round was used by Belgium, Argentina and Turkey.
Does anyone have specifics about lengths, weights and history of them?
I expect they were all three totally different beasties.

Does anyone have anything to explain about them. I am a bit curious.:confused:
 
"...used by..." Hi. It was used by more countries than just Belgium, Argentina and Turkey. Quite a few South American countries used it as well. You won't find milsurp ammo.
Go here for a synopsis of the 7.65 Argentine rifle cartridge. AKA 7.65 Belgian Mauser, 7.65x53. Case dimensions are there too. http://www.chuckhawks.com/7-65x53_7-65x53R.htm
Case drawing is here. http://stevespages.com/jpg/cd765mauser.jpg
Uses a .313" bullet. Hornady makes a .312". Cases can be formed from .30-06, .270 Winchester, 7mm Mauser, and 8mm Mauser brass.
Norma and Prvi load it. Norma ammo will be pricey. Don't know if Prvi is imported.
 
Thanks Sunray!
So the Argentine and the Belgian are actually the same.
I forgot the rest of South America was pretty well split up between 7.65 and 7mm Mauser.

I wonder how the Turkish round compares?
 
Turkey adopted the 7.65 in 1890, immediately after Belgium. They used it through the Great War in all those 1890 Mausers as well as the 1903 short-action models. These rifles mostly were converted to 7.92x57 in the 1930s.

In every case, the cartridge casing was identical, only the load being changed around and, often, not much at all. In those days it was very fashionable for every country to have their own 'special' cartridge, just to show that they knew more than the other guys. In fact, although the receiver crests were different, all the rifles were made in the same plants, rifled on the same machines and almost all with the same pitch, so the loads actually were pretty close.

The rifles all were Mausers of one model or another... 1889 Belgian, 1890 Turkish, 1891 Argentine to start and the others followed on later.... 1893 Turkish, then the Paraguayan(?) and so forth. The round was loaded with a variety of bullet weights at varying velocities. Nice thing is that the only part which needed to be different was the ramp for the rear sight... and that could be changed out in an armoury in an hour if you had the tools and some experienced people.

Ballistically, when using the original 174-grain bullet, it duplicates the .303 Mark VII Ball round. Early loads with heavy bullets tend to duplicate the early 215-grain 303 loads. Essentially, it is a rimless .303 and runs at similar (low) pressures.

It's a nice cartridge and it was decades ahead of its time. If you load it with a 150, it can duplicate the famous and world-beating 7.62x51 NATO, just that it did it 60 years earlier. There is only 2mm difference between the NATO and the old Mauser rounds. Why NATO didn't just go ahead and use the 7.65 is beyond me; they even could have freshed-out old .30 barrels and made it work. Guess there wasn't enough money running through it that way. Besides, the T-65 was an AMURican design and so was/is automatically better, even though pressures are much higher than with the 7.65. You can make 7.65 brass a number of ways, as has been detailed, but you can also blow out fired 7.62 NATO/.308 Winchester (if they are held by the extractor) and they will lengthen pretty much to spec in a couple of firings: cheap.

Hope this helps.
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"...are actually the same...the Turkish round..." Yep. Same thing.
Spain, Turkey, Bolivia, Colombia, Ecuador, Paraguay and Peru all used the same cartridge.
The Model 1891 Argentine Mauser was made in Germany and the rest of the countries using the 7.65 likely bought 'em too. No in-country factories.
 
That's awesome for information. Thank you very much.
I always thought they might have differed but now see how it is the same round developped over time.

Sounds a lot like the .303 from 1900-1930, changed weights.
 
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