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De Lisle Carbine: more than you ever wanted to know...
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To: "C&R (E-mail)" <c-r-ffl@shelfspace.com>
Subject: De Lisle Carbine: more than you ever wanted to know...
From: Bob Proctor <Bob.Proctor@digital.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 01:24:15 -0500
Sender:
owner-c-r-ffl@shelfspace.com
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Well, I got flooded (well, dribbled on) with mail that wanted to know
re: De Lisle Carbines, care and feeding, history, who makes 'em, etc etc
etc.
Here ya'll go:
First, a history lesson (God, I just LOVE scanners!):
-- Scanned and Reproduced withOUT permission from "The Lee Enfield
Story"; Ian Skennerton Author --
SILENCED COMMANDO CARBINES
These British Commando carbines were developed by William De Lisle in
conjunction with Sir Malcolm Campbell of Combined Operations H.Q. from
1942 and officially approved on a secret list for limited production.
The De Lisle carbine was essentially designed and built around the
pistol cartridge because this is effectively the most important
consideration for a silenced firearm, that the projectile should travel
below the speed of sound (so as to avoid the distinctive "crack" heard
when the bullet achieved supersonic velocities) yet still have adequate
muzzle energy.
The U.S. military .45-in. Auto Colt Pistol cartridge was an obvious
choice as it was also in British service at the time with the Thompson
Sub-Machine gun; some M1911 Colt pistols were on British issue during
the war also. Because this cartridge was chosen, it enabled the
adaptation of the Model 1911 Colt pistol magazine for use in the De
Lisle carbine as these .45 magazines were a stock item with certain
specialist units such as the Commandos.
Production of the De Lisle carbine was terminated before the airborne
models were made and so only the prototype of this folding stock model
was assembled. The planned production of 500 carbines being cut short,
only about 130 of the standard model with wooden S.M.L.E. butt were
manufactured, according to the official records. However, it appears
that there may have been an additional contract or other service
department outfitted as some serial numbers in excess of the 130 have
been noted; nevertheless, total production of the .45 De Lisle Commando
Carbines did not exceed a few hundred.
Some prototypes were fabricated at the Ford Dagenham factory for tests,
the manufacture of the approved pattern was carried out by Sterling at
Dagenham, East London. Two models were planned for production; a
standard type using the S.M.L.E. rifle butt and an airborne version with
folding metal stock; weighing 8 lb. 4 oz. and 7 lb. 2.5 oz.
respectively. The silencer was no newcomer as it had been developed to
quite an effective standard by the end of the 19th century by inventors
such as Hiram Maxim, although De Lisle's design featured a number of
refinements. A military application for the silencer or suppressor had
been considered by Britain and trials were conducted in the United
States by the turn of the century although the subject was not
investigated further due to the doubtful requirement.
Although the .45 A.C.P. round is only a pistol cartridge, the De Lisle
bolt action carbine has a barrel length of 7.25 ins. compared with that
of the Model 1911 Colt pistol's 5 ins., this noticeably improved the
performance and effectiveness of the round. Along with the increased
sighting radius, it also permitted shooting over longer ranges than was
normally effective with the pistol. The .45-in. calibre bullet left the
muzzle at just below the speed of sound so there was no super-sonic
"crack" and with the muzzle blast also muffled, those only really
noticeable sounds were the "thump" of the bullet upon striking the
target as well as the manipulation of the bolt by the hand.
Production of the De Lisle was terminated before the airborne models
were made and so only the prototype of this folding stock model was
assembled. The planned production of 500 carbines being cut short, only
about 130 of the standard model with wooden S.M.L.E. butt were
manufactured, according to the official records. However, it appears
that there may have been an additional contract or other service
department supplied as some serial numbers in excess of the 130 have
been noted; nevertheless, total production of the .45 commando carbines
did not exceed a few hundred.
De Lisle Ford Dagenham Sterling
.22RF De Lisle Prototype: 1
9mm De Lisle Prototype: 1
.45 ACP De Lisle Prototypes: 17
130+?
De Lisle Commando Carbine:
prototype
De Lisle Airborne Model:
Calibre: .45 in.
Rifling & Twist: 6 groove L.H.
Barrel Length: 725 in. (]S4mm)
Overall Length: 35. 75 in. (908mm)
Weight: 81b. 4oz. (3.7 kg)
Magazine Capacity:7 rounds.
Converted:Sterling Armament.
Typical Markings, RH. side of Butt Socket:
GR. ENFIELD
1918
S'L' L.E.
III.
Used or condemned rifles were used as the basis for these conversions,
possibly the only unmodified component would be the butt assembly. The
receiver has had the charger guide removed and an ejector let into the
left side of the body; the trigger guard has a tubular casing for the
Colt Model 1911 magazine and the remainder of the .303 magazine slot has
been filled in. The bolt has been shortened to 3.6 in. and the original
bolthead face recessed and fitted with a modified extractor. A Bakelite
insert has been dovetailed into the underside of the bolt handle so as
to reduce the sound made when closing the bolt.
The 1911 Colt pistol magazine has been modified with an S.M.L.E. type
rib down the back, the lips and platform have also been altered
slightly. Extending nearly 2.5 in. into the boltway, the barrel has an
effective length of 7.25 in. Beyond the barrel muzzle is an expansion
chamber and a series of baffles, contained within a 2-in. diameter alloy
tube. The thirteen baffles are positioned on two locating rods so as to
align their bullet passage holes; most of the baffles are cut and bent
above this hole to form a type of Archimedes screw effect. An alloy end
cap for the silencer is secured by two bolts with Allen key recesses in
their heads, and some small bleed holes from the silencer assembly are
drilled at the bottom of this cap.
A conventional leaf backsight is graduated at 50, 100,150 and 200 yards
and the bed is riveted onto the silencer casing; the blade foresight has
two protecting ears. An upper sling swivel is attached to the underside
of the silencer body. The original S.M.L.E. fore-end was cut off level
with the front of the receiver and an 8-inch long fore-wood is attached
beneath the silencer casing.
A two-piece cleaning rod is housed in the butt trap, totaling 15-in. in
length; the rear portion is tubular and accepts the smaller diameter
front section for storage in the butt.
...
The De Lisle commando carbine is also a member of the No. 1 rifle family
and it went into limited production during World War 2. Developed for
special operations, it uses the U.S. .45 A.C.P. cartridge (as for M1911
Colt pistol and Thompson sub-machine gun). It was designed by W.G. De
Lisle and comprises a No.1 Mk III action with charger bridge removed and
a special .45 calibre barrel fitted, extending back into the original
boltway and requiring a shortened bolt. A jacket which contains the
silencing baffles extends forward of the breech for about 15 inches.
Three silenced rifles were proposed to the Ordnance Board in 1943 by De
Lisle, two in .22 RF calibre and one in .45 ACP. The, .22 rifles were an
auto-loader and a machine carbine which featured a waxed paper belt, but
neither of these designs filled any requirement so they were not
proceeded with. A small number of .45 prototypes was built up by De
Lisle at the Ford Dagenham factory, assisted by Major Sir Donald
Campbell who was responsible for organising "practical field tests" in
special operations on the occupied French coast.
It is recorded that after successful trials on the Campbell estate, the
carbine was offered to the Senior Officer to shoot and he shot at some
ducks feeding on the other side of the lake, purportedly some 400 yards
distant. One duck was shot dead through the neck and upon recovery of
the "target" the officer coolly remarked, "I'm rather out of practice,
so perhaps it's hardly fair to blame the gun. Actually I aimed for its
head".
One of the Ford Dagenham prototypes is in the Pattern Room collection,
marked "THE DE LISLE COMMANDO CARBINE" along the top of the silencer
jacket, along with the serial number. A 1910 vintage Mark III S.M.L.E.
action was used for this particular conversion and the silencer jacket
is slightly smaller in diameter than the later production model and it
has an American style sporting rear sight with four range notches. Two
of these prototypes were used in endurance and sound level tests.
Two versions were ordered, a standard model which utilised an ordinary
No.1 butt, and a paratroop model with pistol grip and folding stock.
Only 106 carbines are recorded as being produced by Sterling Armament
Corporation at Dagenham although initial orders were for 500 carbines,
numbers 451-500 were to be the airborne models with the folding
buttstock. This was then increased to a total of 600 carbines but
Ordnance Board reports indicate that production was terminated at 106
standard models; only prototypes of the folding stock model were
assembled.
Other official records put the total production at not more than 130 and
some specimens have been noted with Sterling marked serial numbers in
excess of this. It may well be that the production run did extend beyond
the 106 indicated in the Ordnance Board report, or even the approximate
130 on production records, but it is certain that the total quantity was
still relatively small and did not exceed a few hundred.
Quite thorough tests were conducted by the Ordnance Board in 1943 and
1944 with two prototypes, against the silenced Mark II Sten and
Welsenton silenced Sten. The De Lisle carbines fared quite well in both
the endurance and sound level tests and later on, two of the Sterling
made De Lisle carbines were used for further trials. The order with
Sterling was placed for Combined Operations and was cancelled after the
mode of warfare changed following the landings in Europe in 1944. The
commando carbines were later used quite successfully in the Far East in
jungle fighting.
Official specifications of the Commando carbines were given in November
1945 as:-
Weight 81b.4oz.
7 lb. 2.5 oz. (Airborne model)
Length 2 ft. 11.25 in.
2 ft. 1 in. (Airborne model)
Barrel Length 7.25 in.
Sight Radius 12.25 in.
Sights Blade & Vsights, luminous
sights for night work.
Silencer Integral, 13 baffles, made of
duralium.
Distance from muzzle
to end of silencer 10.5 in.
Ammunition .45-in. Colt auto.
Muzzle Velocity 830 ft/sec.
Effective Range 275 yards.
Some of the carbines were fitted with luminous night sights by Holland &
Holland. A comprehensive description of these carbines along with more
illustrations and drawings may be found in "De Lisle's Commando Carbine"
by Skennerton.
~~~
Second: onto my De Lisle:
A local gunsmith was making a silenced version for the cops (believe it
or not); and I was lucky enough to get one of the carbines Just Like The
Cops Got Except That The Silencer Part Don't Work.
These pieces were built from the Pattern Room specs; the 'smith got a
trip to England (on our taxpayer $$$) to get the specs. He built 'em
from No 1 Mk III parts just like the originals.
I didn't get the Silenced version because I didn't want to go through
the hassle of getting the GCA '68 paperwork approved just to (not) hear
the thing go off... and the 'smith wanted even larger $$$ for that
version.
I only had the nerve to fire one clip through it, just to see if it
worked, then it was retired to a place of honor in the safe, only to be
brought out on national holidays that start with the letter "Q". (i.e.
not real often).... Even with a non-silenced jacket on the gun, it still
works well enough that you can hear the firing pin hit the cartridge, a
slight "boom"; and a "thump!" when the bullet hit the berm. At 100
yards, I pulled down a 2" group; which is respectible enough for me...
('course since the piece wasn't sighted in the group was on the left
edge of the paper, but it WAS a 2" group).
I can send a picture of the thing if anyone is interested. They look
like something that Boba Fett of Star Wars fame would haul around to
blast good guys with!
~~~~
Third: Where to find 'em.
alas, the gun smith has retired from the DLSC biz, and has no plans to
make more.
the upside:
There is a gunsmith in Pueblo, CO who has been making them. I have been
frantically searching through my old SGNs for the name of the 'smith.
The ad appeared in two editions, and then stopped never to be seen
again. This tells me that either the gunsmith has enough work for the
next 200 years, or there was no interest at all.
~~~
Fourth: Is mine for sale?
Possibly. Hold onto your wallets, though, because they ain't cheap. Mine
caused me to empty my piggy bank, and we'll just say that this piece of
memorabilia would set you back LOTS of milk money and leave you eating
cheese sandwiches.... email me if there's interest (although since I
have only seen SEVEN of these things in my life, and of those six
belonged to the cops I'm not real wild about selling it)...
Whew!
Other questions? Anybody wanna see it? Lemme know.
.bob p.
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