The old SMGs - did they fail often?

I have some old SMGs. They all work remarkably well. I don't think any of them have ever jammed or failed to fire.

each has its plusses and minuses. The Thompson is accurate in FA, but very heavy.

The Sten looks like a piece of crap but shoots perfectly and is quite accurate. The Cdn Sterling is probably the best all round.
 
In Cornwallis during the mid 80's our squad NCO demonstrated the questionable safety of the smg by cocking it, engaging the safety, then lightly taping the butt on the ground. The bolt slammed forward. Had there been a loaded mag in the weapon it would have chambered and fired a round. Granted these weapons were old and worn, almost worn out, but we sure treated them carefully after that demo. But it sure was a hoot to shoot.
 
Sterlings ? Patchettes ? what are these guns of which you speak? the CF only used the CAL made C1 SMG folks
 
The new: "internet true legend" to replace the "pre-internet true legend" about the sten gun whirling around until it ran out of bullets has been replaced by the dumbass legend about some supposed SKS rifle emptying it's magazine while some drunks were driving around with the stereo cranked.

I see dope smoking is still very popular in Hollyweird.
 
teenahlake said:
I watched an old "Mcqueen" film where he was in WW2, using a greasegun, he would only open the cover/safety just before firing.
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The later versions required you to #### the firearm by putting your finger in a nicely machined hemispherical hole in the bolt. When the ejection port was closed, a lug prevented the bolt from moving forward, thus rendering your SMG bolt nice and secure.

[youtube]lVtj6GkrLY8[/youtube]
 
XRCD011 said:
Sterlings ? Patchettes ? what are these guns of which you speak? the CF only used the CAL made C1 SMG folks
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You're technically right but when I was in the navy they were normally referred to as the Sterling SMG. Yes, in basic training the instructor referred to them as the C1 smg.
 
Navy, no offense to the senior service but one time a bunch of swabbies where setting up on the range beside us and running through the TOETs before firing as we where packing up. They looked dangerously incompetant and we (Army types) got packed up and on the road ASAFP so we would not spend the rest of the day filling out accident reports and giving statements. Anyways thats all water under the bridge today. The Navy, and anyone else for that matter, can call the C1 SMG whatever they wish.
 
XRCD011 said:
Navy, no offense to the senior service but one time a bunch of swabbies where setting up on the range beside us and running through the TOETs before firing as we where packing up. They looked dangerously incompetant and we (Army types) got packed up and on the road ASAFP so we would not spend the rest of the day filling out accident reports and giving statements. Anyways thats all water under the bridge today. The Navy, and anyone else for that matter, can call the C1 SMG whatever they wish.
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I'm not questioning your memory or perception, but my recollection of how the POs ran Heale's range during firearms training is that it was run to a rigid protocol that I have appreciated ever since. I never heard of an accident and anyone being remotely careless was instantly reamed out. As we know from recent post, being army does not guarantee range safety.
 
teenahlake said:
Yes, Tony that was what I was alluding to, as opposed to a slot or, possibly worn sear
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The drawback I can see with the M3A1 is with regards to arctic warfare. I imagine it would be pretty hard to #### if you were wearing dummy mitts, and I am not sure if there was a winter trigger attachment/accomodation for them either. Otherwise it's really cool.

The slow rate of fire built in to it is fascinating (ahead of it's time thinking?)

Here is a thread where US vets talk about using them in wars etc.

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-581739.html
 
I USED TO CARRY one in the 70s and 80s ,they were a good reliable piece of kit.but if you stretched the spring too much,when you pulled the trigger it didnt stop til the mag was empty.
 
When Victor fired a warning shot, there was no doubt he was serious :)

I hope you yelled "HELL YAAAAAA" for the whole 30 rounds :)
 
In my regiment, the 9mm SMG was standard issue. We had to qualify with it. When fired, the bolt moves the point of balance forward abruptly. That changed the point of aim. The sights were fully adjustable, so with a few well aimed rounds, the shooter's point of impact could be brought onto the point of impact. I liked it as a personal weapon because it was easy to fit into our vehicles around all the other stuff.

Over the years I don't remember any NDs or doubling. My feeling is these are stories being perpetuated by people who are neither knowledgible of SMGs or guns in particular. They see a simple firearm, and assume it isn't properly or safely designed. When they tried to hold it like a rifle or didn't learn how to fire full auto', the guns gets blamed. Same goes for people who have bad range day memories of the 9mm Browning. "Throw it", they say. Crap! Learn to shoot it.

One thing that almost nobody talks about is how to fire full auto at a moving target. Fire where the target is going to be, and let it run into the bullets. Trying to move a stream of flying lead onto a target is a waste of ammo and opportunity.
 
As much as people have a boner for full auto I think its just a great way to blow off a lot of ammo quickly. I have been taught, and taught, that the only time one goes DA is when the targets are shoulder to shoulder or overlapping for the same effect. Semi works very well, FA seems that you, the shooter are giving control over to the gun where it decides to fire and all you the shooter have to do is hold a trigger rearward and point. The solution for shooting at moving targets is one of two methods pick a point in front of the target and let it run into the stream or aim at the mover and start shooting while swinging to its front. If you see more of the front (or rear) of the person then a side is seen less lead is needed, more side then front (or rear) then more lead required.
 
sulisa said:
Hi folks,

I was reading a thread a couple days ago about an SKS that was "firing auto" (you've read these from time to time) - a stuck firing pin, or something. Dangerous, with a chance of an out of battery primer strike.

So that got me thinking... when I first joined the Reserves, we still had a couple SMGs (Sterlings?)... When you look at the design of these and other blowback SMGs, like STENs, they were basically a heavy bolt assembly, held back against a spring by a trigger, which when released stripped a round from the mag, chambered it, and fired it. The bolt assembly was heavy enough that the pistol round would have expended most of its energy by the time inertia got that bolt assembly moving backwards, and had just enough oomph left to shove the bolt assembly rearward past where the trigger would catch it, extracting and ejecting the spent casing along the way.

If I picture this bolt assembly as solid, with a pointy pin on the front end, isn't there a chance that a bullet, caught on something on the way to the chamber, could have gone off? On the modern firearms, there's all sorts of sears and timing devices to prevent the firing pin from striking until the bullet is chambered, but was there any insurance like that on these older ones? Or, put another way, how did this fire the round at exactly the time the bullet was fully chambered. Surely there was no thought to "timing" on these old warhorses?

Am I missing something in the design, or have I just never heard of range accidents or wartime incidents of guns blowing up?

I've always been a fan of the "simple is best" theory, and love bolt action, but this mental distraction has survived a couple days, and a couple Internet searches, without an answer :)

Thanks
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I wouldn't expect too many problems with a gun as simple as the sten. Simple is always better and more reliable ;)
 
stencollector said:
The Canadian version of the Sterling had one extra safety feature over the old sten in that the trigger mech would hold the bolt open or closed (wherever it was at) if the selector was on safe.

The fixed firing pin caused detonation of the primer just before the cartridge was fully into the chamber. This way, the recoil was taken up by both the forward momentum of the block as well as the spring. There were explicit instructions not to fire the SMG C1 by putting a round in the chamber and then allowing the bolt to close onto it.

Back in those days of the glass beer and pop bottle with no twist off caps, the mags were often abused. How they functioned at all is beyond me. I do recall the odd round going off in the tube rather than in the barrel, but it was not common. Seems to me there were instructions that left handed shooters were to correct their abnormal ways and fire the SMG C1 right handed, so their face was on the "safe" side of the gun.
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Exactly correct sir, this concept is called advanced primer ignition. This timing has to be spot on for the safe full auto operation of these simple blowback operated selective fire SMGs. Without A.P.I. there would be two pressure waves in the barrel at the exact same time. Very bad juju! :(

PS: I did not read all the posts here, but I did hear a rumour that during the 1970 October Crisis centred in Quebec, that during army troop disemembarkment an army cook, in or near to Montreal, failed to unload his 9mm SMG. And upon hitting the ground from the back of a deuce and a half, his SMG discharged when the bolt jumped the sear from the jarring action and he shot himself with fatal results IIRC.
 
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