The reality of the new Magnums!
- Thread starter BIGREDD
- Start date
The above is the myth that John Barsness disproves using numbers and calculations that you can follow and check on youself.joe-nwt said:Well lets take the 300WSM then. How do you and John explain the fact that the WSM can produce an equivelent velocity to the 300WM with less powder?
Here's another article by Layne Simpson, another writer who has at least as much credibility as Mr. Barsness. As far as magazine writers go.
http://www.galleryofguns.com/shootingtimes/Articles/DisplayArticles.asp?ID=858
Now if you can get equal velocities with a few grains less powder, there must be some flexibility with the 1/4 rule.
Come to think of it, the 1/4 rule is likely a lot more accurate for a given case. But a different shape case means a different shape powder column which means a different burn pattern, the pressure curve is different and the end results will be different. Although I don't reload the 300WSM, I believe it uses about 3-5 grains less powder to equal the WM. (WSM reloaders chime in here, please) Up to the point that the WSM runs out of capacity. Then further gains can be made with the WM because it has a greater capacity.
The efficiency gains are not that spectacular IMHO but they cannot be dismissed either.
I read the Layne Simpson article. He does some fine work with calipers and water volume on the various cases including the .300WSM and the .300WM. The rest of the data is taken from Winchester and includes the sales hype.
John Barsness compares the maximum velocities of two cartridges based upon their case capacity minus the volume occupied by the seated bullet. Simpson compares the velocities of the .300WSM and .300WM that Winchester loads. These are two different things. We are probably comparing a maximum .300WSM load with a less than maximum load for a .300WM but has a similar velocity. Here is where a difference in efficiency may lie.
Look at this maximum data from the Barnes #3 Manual for the 180gr XFB/XBT bullet:
.300WSM 65.0gr H4350 2947 fps
.300WM 70.0gr H4350 2986 fps
The 7.7% increase in powder should give a 7.7/4=1.9% increase in velocity. We only get a 1.3% increase. So I guess you are right, but the .6% is only about 17 fps which is usually smaller than the standard deviation in a 3-shot group.
The big advantage of a 300WSM is its size and weight. Period.
Peter
Gun5tuff said:
Well I may not be a math wizard but what I see in your example is that with 5 grains less powder, the 300WSM get a velocity that is , for all intents and purposes, equal to the 300WM. Does that not indicate better efficiency?
Maybe we are not talking about the same thing?
joe-nwt said:Well I may not be a math wizard but what I see in your example is that with 5 grains less powder, the 300WSM get a velocity that is , for all intents and purposes, equal to the 300WM. Does that not indicate better efficiency?
Maybe we are not talking about the same thing?
Sorry to interupt, but it's just the 1/4 rule. If the 300 WSM could accomodate another 5 grs, its velocity would be about 2986 fps.
- Location
- Ft. Mac. Alberta
DANCESWITHEMPTIES said:
Ain't yer idea!
I have an article from the first volume of Handloader that shows one!!
Cat
John Y Cannuck said:Amazing Bigredd, a magnum thread that's not locked..... yet
But then, it's a hunting forum right. Nowhere will you find a group that gets along better than hunters. Ok, so we're not perfect, but you get the drift.
By the way, the hole in the end of my barrel is bigger than yours! So There!
Yeah... as far as the hole in the barrel goes... you forget I hunt with slugguns and 50 cals... you better get a bigger gun J/C.
I hear a lot of flap here about efficiency and guys trying to discount facts with articles by writers pretending to be math wizards.
My suggestion to the non-believers is go out and buy a short mag and shoot some bullets over a chrony then you can offer a qualified opinon.
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As a reloader I would load the 300 Win Mag to the exact same pressures as the 300 WSM and get another 100fps minimum gain over the WSM...
I don't really care about the efficiency of the case...
I want a high velocity/accuracy combo and could care less about using 10grs to 20grs more powder to achieve my goals, that is as long as pressures remain at safe levels.
The 300WSM or any of the short magnums for that matter don't do anything for me that standard cartridges can do. When I want more than the standard cartridges provide I reach for my 300RUM or 375RUM...
Now we're talking performance....
300RUM = 180gr Scirroco 3380fps with zero pressure signs....
375RUM = 260gr Accubond 3020fps with zero pressure signs....
I don't really care about the efficiency of the case...
I want a high velocity/accuracy combo and could care less about using 10grs to 20grs more powder to achieve my goals, that is as long as pressures remain at safe levels.
The 300WSM or any of the short magnums for that matter don't do anything for me that standard cartridges can do. When I want more than the standard cartridges provide I reach for my 300RUM or 375RUM...
Now we're talking performance....
300RUM = 180gr Scirroco 3380fps with zero pressure signs....
375RUM = 260gr Accubond 3020fps with zero pressure signs....
In the end, until some new technology presents itself in the world of smokeless powders, we are stuck with the miniscule achievments as far as ammo is concerned. Even if you don't want to admit they exist.
If efficiency is of no consequence, why not go for a 308/50BMG? I'm sure you might get up to 3700FPS with no pressure signs.....
Its all in good fun.
If efficiency is of no consequence, why not go for a 308/50BMG? I'm sure you might get up to 3700FPS with no pressure signs.....
Its all in good fun.
I have got to say that I have enjoyed this thread and other similar and from time to time I can see myself on both sides, if there are actually two sides? More than once over my life, I have fallen for commercial hype. The first I remember was a glossy Winchester product catalog, from Simpson and Lea in Calgary. I remember that Winchester was touting their new or recently new Westerner in .264 MAG and the Alaskan in .338 MAG. It was not these that I fell for, but the hype on the old 94 in 30-30. I seem to recall that they were approaching 2 million sold, and since Winchester said that it was a dandy deer rifle I wanted one for my first gun. My daddy had other plans and said that in his day the 30-30 was O.K. but he was going to get me a real rifle! I shot my first game with his Rem 725 in .280 Rem. and my first rifle was the newly hyped Win 100 in 284.
Dad was so impressed with the hype on the 284 case that he converted his 280 Rem to a long action 284. Cronies were not readily available then so we just went with factory box info and published data. Since my dad supposedly set me straight, I have shot my share of wildcats as well as tried most of the common calibers from 6mm to .30 including all of the magnums. I have also returned to the good old standbys like 25-06, 270 and 280. My present hunting rifle is a .270 WSM and I have actually used it two years in a row! Although I have fallen for much hype, I have made up my own mind on what I use and when I use it and I got to say my hair bristles when I am judged for using too much or too little gun. As far as making up my own mind, I have purchased a used model 94 in 30-30 and I will make up my own mind, however may bite on the Hornady Lever-evolution hype
Since many of us are married to our sport, I always remind myself that with this marriage, we are allowed more than one rifle and that there is no requirement to be faithful and that for some playing the field is O.K.
Dad was so impressed with the hype on the 284 case that he converted his 280 Rem to a long action 284. Cronies were not readily available then so we just went with factory box info and published data. Since my dad supposedly set me straight, I have shot my share of wildcats as well as tried most of the common calibers from 6mm to .30 including all of the magnums. I have also returned to the good old standbys like 25-06, 270 and 280. My present hunting rifle is a .270 WSM and I have actually used it two years in a row! Although I have fallen for much hype, I have made up my own mind on what I use and when I use it and I got to say my hair bristles when I am judged for using too much or too little gun. As far as making up my own mind, I have purchased a used model 94 in 30-30 and I will make up my own mind, however may bite on the Hornady Lever-evolution hype
Since many of us are married to our sport, I always remind myself that with this marriage, we are allowed more than one rifle and that there is no requirement to be faithful and that for some playing the field is O.K.
I was hunting with a friend from work. He is 31 years younger than I am and this was his first season. We were hunting mule deer and he was carrying a 300 win mag. One night in camp he said, if I hit a deer with this rifle it should go down right away. Right? I hope I don't have to explain the flaw in his logic. My main battery includes a 30-06, a 338 win. mag. and a 35 whelen. The problem that I have with SOME of the new magnums, is that they take a bullet that is already too thin and likey to come apart and make it go even faster and more likely to come apart. So to fix that problem they use a bullet that the makers would have you believe will work at any range and at any velocity. uhha.......... If your goal is to take a yodel dog at some obsurd distance, then you might be needing some sort of supper ultra wazoo of a cartridge, other wise, what are you trying to compensate for. Or if you just feel more complete knowing that you have the fastest bullet in the woods while you are out there comuning with nature, then have at 'er. I'm most comfortable with my 35 whelen. It's not a contest.
BIGREDD said:Remember this old ditty....
"Anything you can do, I can do better... I can do anything better than you!"
A lot of people think this is the mentality of the hunters shooting the new magnums. By new or super magnums I am talking about the Ultra Mags, the Lazzeroni's, the WSM's and the SAUM's among others. And the hunters using these new cartridges are bombarded with negative opinions about their choice of firearms and their skill level.
Well the truth is that most of these new magnums are faster, shoot flatter and hit harder than their non magnum or older counterparts and generally the hunters using them are experienced and practiced hunters and shooters.
This rediculous notion that inexperienced hunters are buying a Lazzeroni or Ultra Mag and sitting on a mountain top wounding game for miles in every direction is absurd!
I have been surrounded by hunting and shooting enthusiasts both professionally and recreationally for most of my life. And I can honestly say I cannot think of one hunter that has wounded an animal simply because he was shooting a magnum or super magnum rifle.
Oh yeah... I have heard all the horror stories and second hand crap that perpetuates this myth. I just choose to look at the facts and not the bulls**t.
Fact: First time and inexperienced hunters do not usually buy or use the newest or most powerful cartridges/rifles, anyone in firearms sales knows this to be true.
Fact: A younger hunter regardless of his choice of firearms is just as likely (possibly more likely!) to be practiced and familair with his firearm as someone older!
Fact: A flatter shooting harder hitting cartridge is less likely to wound game than a slower less powerful cartridge... common sense and physics are undeniable!
Fact: The individuals buying and using the new magnums are usually experienced hunters/shooters with an above average understanding of ballistics and the game they are hunting. All you have to do is poll the members here to understand this one.
Fact: It takes more skill not less to shoot accurately at long range and there is no difference in hunter skill level to aproach within 300 or 500 yards.
So what do you say "magnum haters"... do you feel threatened by the Super Magnums because they are new or different from your puny little non magnum?
Do you feel the urge to criticize others because their rifle will hit harder at 300 yards than yours does at the muzzle?
There has to be some way for you to blame all of your percieved problems in the sport on those hunters using magnums.
ANYTHING YOU CAN DO, I CAN DO BETTER ...I CAN DO ANYTHING BETTER THAN YOU !
Poor beggers been marketing suckered. I'd try to justify it to if I were you..I watched a fella spend over 4000$ trying to get one of these 300w%^&M whatevers to peddle 180 grains of lead over 3100, something my weatherby's been doing for years, and if that 300 weath is in a sako they've been dime groups outta the box. And if there is a throat burner that get a 100 or 2 on that, run them both through balistics programs and see the real diff at 3-400 yds...Diddly squat. Dependant on caliber some lazzeronis can be had by times for the price of the materials due to being such barrel burners..Certainly not a magnum hater. It cant be magnum enough for this boy. That being said I am a new fangled reinvent the wheel to sell guns hater
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Getting back to the original post by BIGREDD, marketing of the latest magnums is not aimed at newbie hunters ,for if it was it sure isn't working. One only has to look at all the posts on this site by first time rifle buyers who are worried about recoil from such and such a rifle or cartridge. The new stuff is aimed at opening the wallets of those like me whose gun safes are full. Personally I think it's great, more guns and the consumables for them keeps the money flowing and our gun makers and sporting goods stores in business. It keeps the registry people busy hee hee, and sends a signal to our gubmint that a lot of people like guns and spend and vote. I have all the rifles I need and this year I'm going to buy a couple of handguns and maybe a new shottie(boring 870) but if I was in the market for a new rifle I would seriously consider the 325 WSM in the Savage classic series, maybe next year if I can convince the wife it's for the kids.
Reality of the new Magnums?
I guess one reality is that it got a whole bunch of guys all fired up & buying the new offerings from the rifle makers...
That said, while I've resisted all temptation about them because I really don't "need" a rifle in one of the new Magnums, still it doesn't stop me from "wanting" one.
And one in 7mm WSM to be exact. Fortunately, or unfortunately if you want to look at it that way, the "want" hasn't been strong enough for me to act on it thus far. There has always been something else of "interest" that comes my way before I can take the plunge.
Hey, maybe they'll all be obsolete before I get around to getting my rifle in 7mm WSM...
I guess one reality is that it got a whole bunch of guys all fired up & buying the new offerings from the rifle makers...
That said, while I've resisted all temptation about them because I really don't "need" a rifle in one of the new Magnums, still it doesn't stop me from "wanting" one.
And one in 7mm WSM to be exact. Fortunately, or unfortunately if you want to look at it that way, the "want" hasn't been strong enough for me to act on it thus far. There has always been something else of "interest" that comes my way before I can take the plunge.
Hey, maybe they'll all be obsolete before I get around to getting my rifle in 7mm WSM...
My buddy just ordered a s/s black/gray laminate stocked limited edition Browning BLR in 270 WSM because he thinks it will make an awesome all round deer gun as well as an excellent quick to load and shoot truck gun.
I totally agree with him on this choice because it fits the need that he has...
Having all of these different options is awesome...
I totally agree with him on this choice because it fits the need that he has...
Having all of these different options is awesome...
- Location
- Central Sask
from my lyman manual powder grns velocity pressure PSI
300 wsm 180grn N165 70.0 2936 60500
300 win 180 grn 4831 73 3035 63000
300 ultra retumbo 101 3221 61900
Leepers......explain how the win mag keeps lower pressures to do the same job. and yes.....these figures are all in PSI. I own all three of these calibres and reload for all three (not the win mag anymore cause i quit using it) these figures are all max load which i am not quite using. My favorite is the WSM but i still take the ultra out to play quite often although ive been buying factory loads that i like......federal premium 200 grn noslers @3070 fps and more energy at 400 yards than my 25/06 has at the muzzle. thats why i agree with bigredds point.....whats the problem with the new mags? nothing i can see
if you cant handle the recoil....fine...dont shoot them
300 wsm 180grn N165 70.0 2936 60500
300 win 180 grn 4831 73 3035 63000
300 ultra retumbo 101 3221 61900
Leepers......explain how the win mag keeps lower pressures to do the same job. and yes.....these figures are all in PSI. I own all three of these calibres and reload for all three (not the win mag anymore cause i quit using it) these figures are all max load which i am not quite using. My favorite is the WSM but i still take the ultra out to play quite often although ive been buying factory loads that i like......federal premium 200 grn noslers @3070 fps and more energy at 400 yards than my 25/06 has at the muzzle. thats why i agree with bigredds point.....whats the problem with the new mags? nothing i can see
if you cant handle the recoil....fine...dont shoot them
Well I'm not Leeper.....he's likely forgotten more about Rifles then I will knowsksavenger said:
Your data is abit "skewed" though.....you list 3 different loads that use 3 different powders ???
Compare the same Powder in each case and you will see the 300 WSM must generate higher pressures to get near the same as the 300 WM...as does the 300 WM develop more pressure then the 300 Ultra to get close to the same velocity....etc.
To get the same (or close) velocities out of a smaller case then the larger one something must go up.....usually pressure. The 308 win and 30-06 are also good examples of this, the smaller 308 comes close to the '06 but runs at much higher pressures to do so
FWIW:
Seems to me alot of folks get caught up in the Numbers comparisons between the "New" mags vs the "Old" ones. They are so close it's really silly to try and find a Ballistic difference between them.
One should focus on the Only "Real World" advantage in a Sporting rifle the WSM's and such offer.......
They fit in a Short Actions
