.....and today we complain about natives taking the odd deer or moose because they have a special status.I certainly believe it was man's fault, the scale of the slaughter was completely unthinking, and unsustainable. It was also used as a tool to push the natives off the plains. Try and picture what that pile of skulls represents in whole buffalo for volume, it's almost unfathomable, and that's just one of a plethora of slaughter operations.
The Right Tool: Following up a Wounded Wood Bison bull with a Double Rifle (Article)
- Thread starter Ardent
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Donny Fenn1
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
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- East Kootenays
can't say anything about that particular picture but a fairly good living was made mining Head Smashed In and other jump/cliff sites for bones/remains for fertilizer.
.....and today we complain about natives taking the odd deer or moose because they have a special status.
Things were one way, now they are another; what is one to do?
Things which transpired 100 years ago, scarcely apply any more. Bemoaning about what happened to the buffalo is pointless...in Eastern Europe that pile could have been the bones of the vanquished on more than one occasion.
The native's hunting privileges need to be overhauled...
Things were one way, now they are another; what is one to do?
Things which transpired 100 years ago, scarcely apply any more. Bemoaning about what happened to the buffalo is pointless...in Eastern Europe that pile could have been the bones of the vanquished on more than one occasion.
The native's hunting privileges need to be overhauled...
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I can't help but wonder as well if all the population estimates of the original Plains Bison were vastly overblown. I keep reading 60 million head in articles critical of the human causation of the extinction, but most other sources seem less than half that. Wikipedia's reference material suggests 25 million, granted no solid number but none of these are. I wouldn't be surprised if the number was something even lower, like 10 million or less. There were no scientific herd counts occurring, just a bunch of guesses sometimes more than a century later. It is easy to imagine how guesses could be blown even ten times the actual number- just like the hunters estimating their kills, proved greatly exaggerated, and actually anything counted by humans really. We're terrible at it!
I can easily see how a far smaller initial population than estimated could have been destroyed by wanton shooting from railways disrupting migration, unmanaged hunting / killing, domestic cattle diseases, and settling of the plains. Like the Grizzly Bison doesn't do well around people in the wild.
I can easily see how a far smaller initial population than estimated could have been destroyed by wanton shooting from railways disrupting migration, unmanaged hunting / killing, domestic cattle diseases, and settling of the plains. Like the Grizzly Bison doesn't do well around people in the wild.
I don't think challenging a myth is bemoaning anything. It is not credible that a few thousand men, organized by themselves in small groups, lacking real supply chains, dependant on animal transport, could acquire and shot off millions upon millions of rounds of ammo and kill millions of bison, almost to the last animal in a few years.
Around here the buffalo were basically gone before the railroad was built. When Treaty six was signed in or around '76 it was pursued by the Indians as they didn't have anything to eat. The Riel Rebellion was used as a push to get it completed and that wasn't until '85. In these parts that's considered local news.
We used to pick a few buffalo bones when we were picking rocks by hand as kids. Didn't know what they were, and never gave it much thought until I found a skull, and then another one right beside the house. Then I checked a bit with the limited resources we had locally. Got some more when a neighbor hired my brother and I to pick roots on new breaking and had a nice little collection going about the time they all came to life and walked away. At least that's the only possible explanation I can come up with because who could possibly want century old bone? If I were Indian and got to pick my own name I'd go with "Walking buffalo" because all my buffalo walked away. I can't believe I'm still mad about that.
We used to pick a few buffalo bones when we were picking rocks by hand as kids. Didn't know what they were, and never gave it much thought until I found a skull, and then another one right beside the house. Then I checked a bit with the limited resources we had locally. Got some more when a neighbor hired my brother and I to pick roots on new breaking and had a nice little collection going about the time they all came to life and walked away. At least that's the only possible explanation I can come up with because who could possibly want century old bone? If I were Indian and got to pick my own name I'd go with "Walking buffalo" because all my buffalo walked away. I can't believe I'm still mad about that.
Here's my homework. There was no railroad to Fort Benton at that time, it was the last stop on the Mississippi/Missouri steamboat route. There was no railroad from Fort Benton to Fort Walsh, there was a wagon trail known as the Fort Benton Trail. "Bull Trains", or in other words, Ox drawn wagons, linked the two forts.
I know I am beating the David Thomspon drum, but there is a lot of first hand information in what he wrote. In 1787 he gives an account of a smallpox epidemic, the odd thing he notes is that the animals also diminished.
"For three and twenty days we marched over fine grounds looking for the Indians without seeing any other animals than a chance Bull Bison,"
"It is justly said, that as Mankind decrease, the Beasts of the earth increase, but in this calamity the natives saw all decrease but the Bears."
"The Bisons are vagrant, wandering from place to place over the great Plains, but the Moose and other Deer are supposed to keep within a range of ground, which they do not willingly leave, but all were much lessened in number."
"All the Wolves and Dogs that fed on the bodies of those that died of the Small Pox lost their hair especially on the sides and belly, and even for six years after many Wolves were found in this condition and their furr useless. The Dogs were mostly killed."
"it was noted by the Traders and Natives, that at the death of the latter, and there being thus reduced to a small number, the numerous herds of Bison and Deer also disappeared both in the Woods and in the Plains, and the Indians about Cumberland House declared the same of the Moose,"
certainly sounds like another disease(s) affected the animals (except bears!) at the same time.
"My" little herd of wild plains bison got hammered up by anthrax about 2008, reducing the numbers to about 200 now depending on who you ask.Parks would rather not talk about it. First Nations take some, how many is hard to say. Tuberculosis is a concern everywhere bison exist, and none of these things are new.
Nobody really knows what happened to the bison, but I'm betting the whole truth isn't that a few guys and a Red River cart shot them all.
Nobody really knows what happened to the bison, but I'm betting the whole truth isn't that a few guys and a Red River cart shot them all.
Yes, there was no railroad linking Fort Benton and Fort Walsh. What is your point? The source I quoted was only that a large shipment was waved through to Fort Benton. How it got to the NWMP I can not say. I am personally interested to find out if the NWMP even accepted the ammunition. The NWMP at the time treated the natives fairly and equally. If anything somewhat sympathetic to what they were enduring. They certainly weren't going after the renegades like the americans wanted them to do.
Since I already have my book off the shelf I will see if I can pull some more tid bits out and post them later.
You really need to go back and read what I quoted. The source I quoted was only to Fort Benton. You seem to have confused yourself with your conjecture about wagons and such. You also made the leap that the shipment went to Fort Walsh, you are basing this on what source? Again the source I quoted was only that the shipment was to Fort Benton. Here also you make the hasty conclusion that since there was no railway in Fort Benton, only steamship, there was no shipment. If I may make a point of conjecture of my own, is it possible that the shipment was loaded onto train cars at some depot and made the final leg of its journey by steamship?
You asked if I had a source to verify that the US army gave away "hundreds of millions of rounds" to hunters. If you read the link Dogleg posted it confirms that ammunition was indeed given away. His source does not contain a detailing of the number of rounds handed out but if I may ask you where did you get your "hundreds of millions" figure from? More assumptions and conjecture? Also 577 snider was used in the early days of the NWMP, the force experimented with the Winchester repeating rifle and by 1878 had adopted the Model 1876 in 45-75. So yes the force started with single shot rifles but by the time of Sitting Bull coming to Canada was using repeaters. If you really want to find out where the cartridges were made, well then do some research.
I have some questions that I am personally interested in seeing answered, such as was the ammunition accepted or was the offer politely declined? I am inclined to think it to be the latter. But that is something that I would need to do further reading into before coming to a conclusion. The only thing I am sure of is that between the two of us I am more likely to actually do the reading and the research.
My assumption is that if you are going to shoot 60 million buffalo, hundreds of millions of rounds would be needed.
Clearly the buffalo disappeared, but I am confident in saying that the neither the hide hunters , nor Railway passengers nor the US Govt is directly responsible, no matter what their wishes or policies.
Clearly the buffalo disappeared, but I am confident in saying that the neither the hide hunters , nor Railway passengers nor the US Govt is directly responsible, no matter what their wishes or policies.
The buffalo disappeared, that is without question. Did any one factor entirely by itself do in the buffalo? Not likely. A "Perfect Storm" of converging factors is more likely.
Regardless, with or without help from disease, the US government policy of extermination would have been pursued to the end. Also the railroads would have continued to encourage shooting. And commercial hunting would have gone on. And the end result would have been the same, it just would have taken longer.
Regardless, with or without help from disease, the US government policy of extermination would have been pursued to the end. Also the railroads would have continued to encourage shooting. And commercial hunting would have gone on. And the end result would have been the same, it just would have taken longer.
Not sure about that....a serious conservation movement began in the very early 1900s.
A serious conservation movement did begin. Teddy Roosevelt wanted Yellowstone to be large enough to support a herd of buffalo, a proper herd that numbered in the hundreds of thousands, not the vestiges that we can see today. His main opposition was from ranchers and other landholders who wanted the buffalo completely gone. He had to fight for what we have today and had his vision been fully recognized Yellowstone would be much larger than it is.
What we have today is because of people like him saving what was left from complete extinction. With the natives completely subjugated there was no need to continue the extermination policy to the bitter end, the necessary effect having been attained. Whatever pockets of buffalo that did survive only did so by being in locations that were either hard to access or did not interfer with things like ranching and railroads.
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
An excellent argument from a point of view I agree with completely. I can't help but notice the only wild Bison to survive were all found in locations with very few humans. Now, was every Bison shot? Of course not, and from the winter kill accounts and diseases that circulated at the time it seems other factors played in, though likely still human linked. The unregulated hunting however certainly played a significant role in their collapse.
Even in the modern day people are terrified of the idea of diseased buffalo leaving the parks and mixing with scattered remnants. They know that it would be a disaster for the other herds. None of the diseases are new.
I believe that the 60 million number is vastly overblown. It wouldn't surprise me if it is 10X too high. There can be no doubt that large numbers were shot for a variety of reasons. There can also be no doubt that the bison is susceptible to a whole variety of diseases.
The plains indians tribes were very well acquainted with each other and were hostile to each other even in the pre-horse times, to me this would indicate that they were following the same herd(s) over very large areas and that the population density of the buffalo wasn't really that high.
The plains indians tribes were very well acquainted with each other and were hostile to each other even in the pre-horse times, to me this would indicate that they were following the same herd(s) over very large areas and that the population density of the buffalo wasn't really that high.
