It's one of the factors of many I suspect. Velocity accounts for much as well I'm certain. Increased velocity typically means increased tissue damage.
The Ultimate North American Hunting Round?
- Thread starter Ardent
- Start date
It's one of the factors of many I suspect. Velocity accounts for much as well I'm certain. Increased velocity typically means increased tissue damage.
That HITS is pretty informative. I never knew a 30-30 was 425 yard deer cartridge with 170 grain factory loads, while a .257 Weatherby with 80 grain TTSXs would only be suitable to 75 yards. Who would have guessed that?
I have both 30-06 and 308 , I like many find the 308 cartridge at least in the rifles ive shot to have better recoil characteristics @ similar velocities , usually a straighter back kick than a upward kick the 30-06 gives. I prefer it.
Hand Loaded with the right powder you can run a 165-180 Grain round nearly the same speed with a shorter action also.
Whats not to like. Instead of denying people the choice because of obvious personal bias why not include it.
Its always the same on these forums Magnum heads who think its the end all.
Also nothing wrong with a good 303 either, If you have one that shoots well and get some nice handloads into it they work admirably.
I also would have liked to see the 7mm-08 in there its another case of less recoil with not giving up much in the way of FPS to its rival.
Its not always about FPS although some people seem to think so.
Its these kinds of opinions that are the reason i run into guys at the range with bleeding foreheads because they ran out and bought the newest greatest ultramag and its been scoping them all day long.
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
And unfortubately, posts like the above are at least as deluded as the "magnum heads" they seek to deride. A .300 Win Mag does not kick, to be dead frank it's not even the beginning of real recoil. I feel I have to tread carefully in forums to avoid offending those who feel a .30-06 has recoil, it gets tiresome however attempting to be diplomatic and pretend there is potentially something offensive about any cartridge with magnum in its name. The reality is it's all up to the person behind the rifle. With zero exaggeration, my 110lb wife shoots .375 H&H "Magnum(!)" with none of the drama or troubles constantly attributed to magnums, let alone a real magnum and not a commercial sales pitch of a magnum like a 7mm Rem Mag or many loadings of the .300 Win Mag. I'm aware sheephunter's wife shoots a .338 Win Mag and does so perfectly. There hasn't been a generation that grew up behind a full .30 cal rifle in decades, in Africa things are different and the .375 H&H there is the equivalent of our .30-06 here. That is to say, friends and family there were handed a .375 at 13 years old when real rifle times began as here we'd tentatively coach the young teen onto a .30-06 for the first time. As dogleg well points out earlier in this thread, the best way to put recoil into perspective is to spend some time behind a rifle with real recoil, .458 Lott is likely the most accessible actual kicker in Canada, and .375 H&H a much milder substitute that can start to paint the picture. In that light .300 Win is a pussy cat and nice youth rifle, and the .30-06 and .308 are absolutely indistinguishable in recoil and non-events on the butt end. Recoil is not a valid criticism of a cartridge in my opinion as it doesn't by any means apply to all shooters equally. In a blind test I'd honestly have to check the barrel to tell you whether it was a .300 or a .30-06 I'd just shot last, they are that close but we make mountains out of the minor differences in recoil.
Sorry, many here will turn away at reading this, many won't agree and they're probably as right as I am. We've all got opinions and know what they're like...
Sorry, many here will turn away at reading this, many won't agree and they're probably as right as I am. We've all got opinions and know what they're like...
Can you seriously believe that different cartridges can actually direct their recoil in different directions? This is entirely a function of rifle fit and stock design, and those factors are far more important in determining the amount of felt recoil than tiny insignificant differences in cartridge headstamp. In the same gun/stock configuration, weighing the same, I sincerely doubt even an aficionado like you could perceive any difference between shooting a .308, .30-06, .300WinMag, .303British or any of a large number of other entry-level cartridges.
edited to add: Jeez, Ardent and SH! How fast do you guys type?
nowarningshot
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Very well put. If someone is going to shoot less than 20 centerfire rifle rounds/year, then the recoil of even a 30-06 might be excessive. Combine that with a trend towards light synthetic stocked rifles and large for caliber projectiles from handloads.....a recipe for having your teeth rattled.
Practice with your rifle, find the caliber that is your maximum tolerance with good accuracy and go fill your freezer. This thread started out as a "ultimate" for all NA. Pick a dozen calibers between 6.5 and 30, each will work just fine for say 20 of the NA29. But if it is too be ultimate, it needs to be able to ethically put down all 29 with one good shot. When you go there something with "magnum" on the headstamp is likely.
What you call personal bias may also be expressed as experience, which you apparently have little of. Your buddies bleeding brows are from improperly mounted scopes and/or improper handling techniques of the rifles in question. You are right to a small degree in that it's not all about FPS, but it is all about energy imparted on the animal and bigger bores with heavier bullets at significant velocity impart much more energy on the animal in question. This energy may be the difference between a bleeding eyebrow and bleeding from the multiple new orifices the bear or bison has just seen fit to gift you because you decided that a 7-08 is every bit as lethal as a 340 Wby or 375 H&H.
Maybe you believe in leveling the playing field and giving the quarry a fighting chance, I however like my ass arranged just the way it is and extra orifices are not in my schedule, so I will gladly take the upper hand and deal with those that can damage back, and will given the opportunity, with cartridges with muzzle energies exceeding 4000 ft/lbs and even approaching or exceeding 5000 ft/lbs. Through work and a lot of shooting I have acclimatized myself to these levels of recoil and I will wager I can shoot my 340 or 375 every bit as good as you can shoot your 308 or 7-08........is this magnumitis? No it's called experience and I have been in the field and shot grizzlies at several feet, elephant at 18 mtrs, lions, leopards and the like and I can say without trepidation that at no time have I felt OVERGUNNED.
And like Dogleg says.......recoil begins after .40........however I would like to add the 378 Wby to the "over forty" clan in recoil at least as an honorable mention...........
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Sorry if my choice of words was confusing...I was referring to cartridges at the extreme bottom level of "NA29-worthiness", for lack of a better term. Cartridges that are only "ultimate" now that so many have redefined that term to mean "barely adequate".
I honestly wonder sometimes, and then think about how glad I am that I'm not handicapped by recoil aversion, real or imagined. This will allow you to choose a cartridge that won't inhibit opportunities for successful hunts, particularly if significant funds/time were invested on a particular outing.
For "Joe Hunter" out in the back 40 that grabs the gun and goes for a walk after work, or on a Saturday, this entire thread is moot
"spine-snapping recoil" to hunt, lol. My spine is fine and so is my wife's. Amazingly even after firing my "spine-snapping" 8.5 pound 416 Ruger, producing ~5000 pounds of energy
- Location
- Western Manitoba
So, several years ago in late September either-### season, we were hunting elk in North Central Saskatchewan (Hudson Bay area). A party of hunters stopped in at our camp in pouring rain to ask our help - they had shot an elk and were hoping we would use our quads to skid the animal out of the boonies. We agreed and followed them out to a cut line were we discovered that the "shot elk" had been actually been hit once by a nimrod's 30/30 at about 80 yards, while crossing the cutline at a gallop. We found a single dollop of foamy blood, about 30 yards into the bush, from which we assumed the animal had been lung shot (coughing / spit up a bit of blood). As I said, pouring rain, no snow, dense bush and no hope in hell of anyone present with the ninja tracking skills to follow the animal. The elderly shooter's comment was, " Well, I hit it good with the first shot - what was I supposed to do, shoot it up the ass?" His experience and attitude had no doubt saved him pounds of bloodshot meat in his whitetail deer hunting experience, but he was obviously way out of his league on his first elk hunt. Can you imagine if we would rely on his "experience" to guide our choices on our next musk-ox, or brown bear, or polar bear, or Dall Sheep hunt? From my point of view, to properly answer Ardent's initial question, let's listen to the guys that have actually been there and done it; I do not care about the opinion on this matter held by a urban, mother's basement dwelling computer nerd, someone with two whitetails and a 300 pound blackie to their name, or any other wannabe. I am very interested in hearing reasoned suggestions backed by real experience for what would be the ultimate North American hunting cartridge (which, by the way, is not a brand of rifle i.e. Tikka, M98, Rem 700, Win 70). There.... now I can relax...
Although I don't shoot my magnums that often anymore, without a doubt in this case the "ultimate chambering for the NA29", at a minimun would be the 300wm. Most of the Standard chamberings will work fine but when push comes to shove you just can't argue against bullet weight and velocity....well, at least you can't reasonably argue against it....not much more to say about that!
Sorry... disagree again with the same recurring point... I do NOT subscribe to or support the "barely adequate" recommendations... I AM comfortable with the term "adequate" or "sufficient" as it relates to the harvesting of game... I disagree that the .30/06 (specifically) is "barely adequate" for any NA game... used within appropriate limits, it is lethally effective.
To me much of the discord comes into this discussion when the scenario changes from "hunting" to "defensive action."
I dunno, I read on a messageboard once that the recoil from a 375H&H is likely to break your shoulder.
I got told once here that a .375 had a vicious recoil (recoil's worth for 10 bucks a shot, apparently) and would blow a deer to smitherines and that I should get a muzzle-loading cannon from a pirate ship instead. Obviously that made me want a black powder cannon even more, besides edumacating me about recoil. I never knew whether to thank him for clueing me in or to resent him pointing out my cannonlessness to one and all. Either way, it saddened me greatly.
