- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
I keep thinking about how cool it would have been to run into a bison on the trails that cut through the jungle around Moraine Lake. Dreams are good.
The World of Cartridges and Compromises........
- Thread starter c-fbmi
- Start date
I keep thinking about how cool it would have been to run into a bison on the trails that cut through the jungle around Moraine Lake. Dreams are good.
oh yes a very good idea.
When did this happen?..... A bison hunt is very high on my list...... I was going to water down my standards and go American or Albertan, but a true woods busker would be the ultimate!
Ya, would love to regale y'all about that but had some bad luck. One of out travel companions crashed and burned his Kawasaki ZX-14 just north of Quesnel. Everything is repairable but he's a bit sore from break dancing down the road at 70mph. So , another time.
Quickload is a model. Its a good guess. If the model tells you to keep going and the gun is telling you to quit do you keep going?
Manuals are a measurement in one barrel and a good guess in another. If the manual says keep going and the gun says quit, do you keep going?
Chronographs take a measurement and a good guess at pressures. If the chronograph says "pour the #### to 'er" and the gun says "get a helmet" do you up the charge? If you are getting more than any right thinking person would expect do you grin and think you invented free velocity?
Ditto for casehead measurements.
Likewise for ejector marks, or sticky bolt lift. Oh, it wasn't that bad or thaaaat sticky? Should you keep going?
If you hitch your star to any one indicator or system to the exclusion of all others you are going to get burned sooner or later assuming you shoot enough. Luckily, there is a lot of safety margin built into a rifle and if you don't get off scotch free you will probably live through it. Good chance you don't even get hurt, slight chance of getting dead. Maimed is somewhere in between.
View the process as a whole, and if something is telling you to quit its best to listen even if your favorite is saying the opposite.
A well made rifle that has a factory or blueprint equivalent precision about it generally do not show traditional pressure signs until something north of 70K.
Then I had a crappy Rem 700 in 338 Win that couldn't make a mid range book load with out traditional pressure signs.
I have not run across pressure signs when modelling loads, find what I'm looking for within design pressures, mostly.
Hell, I'd buy a new gun and try 'er agin............
BCBRAD..........for someone with 40+ years as a reloader, you are sure making some questionable statements...........If you think the rifle or chamber or barrel has anything to do with pressure SIGNS, then you sir need to do some more learning..........Pressure signs are exhibited exclusively on and by the brass case. A sticky bolt lift is not a product of a bolt design (it can be if the bolt lugs and recesses are flawed, but that's a whole nother problem) it is a product of the brass flowing partially into the ejector recess and/or a lack of spring back of the case due to high pressures. The dimensions of the chamber and bore will certainly have a direct relationship with pressure but these are not something one can see and use as a responsible loading/pressure indicator.
Last edited:
Your dummer than I thought c-fbmi
A rifle with a polished chamber will exhibit pressure signs earlier, a case with minimum taper will show pressure signs later ( think of the AI cartridges), primers tell you nothing other than maybe cup thickness, enlarged primer pockets caused by brass relative hardness and pressure, and excessive case stretch caused by resizing a cartridge that has a sloppy fit in the chamber and or mal-adjusted die.
A precisely made rifle with correctly sized brass will not show traditional pressure signs until something north of 70Kpsi.
Crappy rifles such as the Rem 700 mentioned earlier, with its poor quality control cross threaded barrel, uneven lug engagement, off center chamber and who knows what else will show pressure signs early.
So, there are better ways to determine pressure , the traditional ways can put you into the 70+ Kpsi range without showing anything except velocity........which is the only true pressure sign. Otherwise there are to many variables that effect what the brass looks like.
To that end, the very best way to get an accurate safe load, is to model all components, arrive at a predicted velocity, shoot 5 rounds adjust parameters to line up predicted with indicated velocity, adjust powder charge to a node and proceed to wow yo-self with sub moa groups at any distance this side of a kilometer.
This requires a good working knowledge of the Quickload program, internal ballistics , an accurate device for measuring velocity (LabRadar), tight control of your hand loading process's. And, a rifle that is mechanically sound.
A real example is for the a fore mentioned is I want to shoot groups at 1050 yards with my Sako Finnlight in 30-06. I want to use a center hold at this distance, I have ~35moa available in the M1 turret (its a Leupold).
I'll step you through the process.
Find a bullet that has a high G7 BC
Find a bullet that I can run fast
Model said bullet to see what 'come up' I need for the velocity I expect to get (internal ballistic program/exterior ballistic program)
Findings are a 155.5gr Berger at 2950 ft/s will need 31 moa up.
Model through QL if I can get that velocity within modern design pressure.
Model various compatible powders
Determine that H-4350 will do it at ~63Kpsi
Load 5 rounds, measure velocity
Adjust powder charge to reflect predicted to actual
Proceed to further adjust powder charge to find a node
Now I load xx.x grs of H4350
Go to competition and get <3/4 moa group at 1050 yards, 3 shot.
The rifle is a standard issue Sako M-85 Finnlight in 30-06 sporting a 6X scope. This rifle is mechanically precise and worth the premium paid for a standard hunting rifle.
Just as I figured ...you don't understand therefore you don't agree.
A rifle with a polished chamber will exhibit pressure signs earlier, a case with minimum taper will show pressure signs later ( think of the AI cartridges), primers tell you nothing other than maybe cup thickness, enlarged primer pockets caused by brass relative hardness and pressure, and excessive case stretch caused by resizing a cartridge that has a sloppy fit in the chamber and or mal-adjusted die.
A precisely made rifle with correctly sized brass will not show traditional pressure signs until something north of 70Kpsi.
Crappy rifles such as the Rem 700 mentioned earlier, with its poor quality control cross threaded barrel, uneven lug engagement, off center chamber and who knows what else will show pressure signs early.
So, there are better ways to determine pressure , the traditional ways can put you into the 70+ Kpsi range without showing anything except velocity........which is the only true pressure sign. Otherwise there are to many variables that effect what the brass looks like.
To that end, the very best way to get an accurate safe load, is to model all components, arrive at a predicted velocity, shoot 5 rounds adjust parameters to line up predicted with indicated velocity, adjust powder charge to a node and proceed to wow yo-self with sub moa groups at any distance this side of a kilometer.
This requires a good working knowledge of the Quickload program, internal ballistics , an accurate device for measuring velocity (LabRadar), tight control of your hand loading process's. And, a rifle that is mechanically sound.
A real example is for the a fore mentioned is I want to shoot groups at 1050 yards with my Sako Finnlight in 30-06. I want to use a center hold at this distance, I have ~35moa available in the M1 turret (its a Leupold).
I'll step you through the process.
Find a bullet that has a high G7 BC
Find a bullet that I can run fast
Model said bullet to see what 'come up' I need for the velocity I expect to get (internal ballistic program/exterior ballistic program)
Findings are a 155.5gr Berger at 2950 ft/s will need 31 moa up.
Model through QL if I can get that velocity within modern design pressure.
Model various compatible powders
Determine that H-4350 will do it at ~63Kpsi
Load 5 rounds, measure velocity
Adjust powder charge to reflect predicted to actual
Proceed to further adjust powder charge to find a node
Now I load xx.x grs of H4350
Go to competition and get <3/4 moa group at 1050 yards, 3 shot.
The rifle is a standard issue Sako M-85 Finnlight in 30-06 sporting a 6X scope. This rifle is mechanically precise and worth the premium paid for a standard hunting rifle.
Just as I figured ...you don't understand therefore you don't agree.
BCBRAD.........Boy, I guess you think you really told me...................You can keep relying on your computer and obvious lack of experience and I'll keep doing things my way..........Experience tells me which powders will be the most appropriate for caliber, case size and bullet weight, experience I have gained from loading hundreds of thousands of rounds for something in excess of 150 different cartridges and many, many wildcat cartridges, where the computer doesn't have a clue. My knowledge has been gained at the loading bench, at the shooting bench and in the game fields of the world, as well as a relatively successful run in handgun and rifle silhouette and other shooting disciplines.
I'm not impressed that you can put 3 shots into 7" or so at 1050 yds, that is one load with one rifle on one day...........big deal, good for you. You think that because you had a good day, it over shadows all the knowledge I have gained over my life of designing wildcats, experimenting, building guns, my study of internal and external ballistics, bullet structure, shape and materials. Pressure research, extended flash tubes, multiple flash holes, duplex powder loads............etc., etc., etc...........I too have put together loads that will keep .75 moa and even much less, I have a load that keeps 1/4 moa for my 50 BMG..........but I guess that must just be a fluke because a computer program didn't give me the load.........Oh but wait, I have another load for my 22-250 that also shoots .375" group, after group, after group.........but that must also be a fluke because I didn't get the "go ahead" from Quickload. Oh, but wait, what about my 257 Wby, and my 7 RUM and my 375 H&H and the dozen or so other rifles that shoot sub moa groups, that I own. I must be one super lucky SOB to fluke onto all those sub moa loads without the benefit of a computer program to tell me what to do............I managed for the first 4 1/2 decades of my experimenting and loading career without the dubious benefits of a computer program, I think I can manage the last few years without it, and without you telling me how little I understand and how "dumb" I am.
I have done things with rifles and gunpowder and brass cases that would boggle your mind and are so far beyond your understanding of what you think you know, that there is no computer program that could go anywhere close to where I have gone regarding internal and external ballistics experimentation.
So do tell, what are the benefits and/or downside of extended flash tubes? Where is the optimum point in the powder column to ignite the powder? What happens when you ignite the powder at multiple points in the powder column? What affect does frontal ignition have on the peak pressure? What affect does frontal ignition have on the pressure curve and where peak pressure occurs? What are the benefits and/or downside of multiple flash holes? Where and why would one use multiple powders in the same case at the same time? What affect does a bent barrel or off center bore have on accuracy, or POI? What are the advantages/disadvantages of gain twist rifling? What are the differences and advantages or disadvantages of button rifling, as compared to cut rifling, as compared hammer forged rifling? What does bullet shape have to do with it's frictional coefficient? What jacket material has the highest frictional coefficient? What jacket material has the lowest frictional coefficient? ..........what does your computer program tell about these topics of internal ballistics? How did Ackley shoot a 200 gn 35 caliber bullet down a .308 bore from an '06 case without any damage to the rifle or case? What does your computer program tell you about this?
Another thing I can tell you is that your computer program don't mean sh!t, neither does your 1000 yard group, when you are standing 18 mtrs in front of a very unhappy elephant and your PH is shouting "shoot him RIGHT now in the head, brain him NOW", or you are gutting a moose and you hear a noise behind you and you turn to see a grizzly 15 feet away. I can tell you that all your electronic ballistic masturbation is absolutely worthless and you had better hope that your nerves and experience along with the appropriate cartridge and your bullet choice, do what they are supposed to, G7 BC be damned.
You may wish to reconsider your statements, possibly I understand a lot more than you give me credit for and I'm not really the dummy you may think..........
I'm not impressed that you can put 3 shots into 7" or so at 1050 yds, that is one load with one rifle on one day...........big deal, good for you. You think that because you had a good day, it over shadows all the knowledge I have gained over my life of designing wildcats, experimenting, building guns, my study of internal and external ballistics, bullet structure, shape and materials. Pressure research, extended flash tubes, multiple flash holes, duplex powder loads............etc., etc., etc...........I too have put together loads that will keep .75 moa and even much less, I have a load that keeps 1/4 moa for my 50 BMG..........but I guess that must just be a fluke because a computer program didn't give me the load.........Oh but wait, I have another load for my 22-250 that also shoots .375" group, after group, after group.........but that must also be a fluke because I didn't get the "go ahead" from Quickload. Oh, but wait, what about my 257 Wby, and my 7 RUM and my 375 H&H and the dozen or so other rifles that shoot sub moa groups, that I own. I must be one super lucky SOB to fluke onto all those sub moa loads without the benefit of a computer program to tell me what to do............I managed for the first 4 1/2 decades of my experimenting and loading career without the dubious benefits of a computer program, I think I can manage the last few years without it, and without you telling me how little I understand and how "dumb" I am.
I have done things with rifles and gunpowder and brass cases that would boggle your mind and are so far beyond your understanding of what you think you know, that there is no computer program that could go anywhere close to where I have gone regarding internal and external ballistics experimentation.
So do tell, what are the benefits and/or downside of extended flash tubes? Where is the optimum point in the powder column to ignite the powder? What happens when you ignite the powder at multiple points in the powder column? What affect does frontal ignition have on the peak pressure? What affect does frontal ignition have on the pressure curve and where peak pressure occurs? What are the benefits and/or downside of multiple flash holes? Where and why would one use multiple powders in the same case at the same time? What affect does a bent barrel or off center bore have on accuracy, or POI? What are the advantages/disadvantages of gain twist rifling? What are the differences and advantages or disadvantages of button rifling, as compared to cut rifling, as compared hammer forged rifling? What does bullet shape have to do with it's frictional coefficient? What jacket material has the highest frictional coefficient? What jacket material has the lowest frictional coefficient? ..........what does your computer program tell about these topics of internal ballistics? How did Ackley shoot a 200 gn 35 caliber bullet down a .308 bore from an '06 case without any damage to the rifle or case? What does your computer program tell you about this?
Another thing I can tell you is that your computer program don't mean sh!t, neither does your 1000 yard group, when you are standing 18 mtrs in front of a very unhappy elephant and your PH is shouting "shoot him RIGHT now in the head, brain him NOW", or you are gutting a moose and you hear a noise behind you and you turn to see a grizzly 15 feet away. I can tell you that all your electronic ballistic masturbation is absolutely worthless and you had better hope that your nerves and experience along with the appropriate cartridge and your bullet choice, do what they are supposed to, G7 BC be damned.
You may wish to reconsider your statements, possibly I understand a lot more than you give me credit for and I'm not really the dummy you may think..........
Last edited:
And I thought I've seen everything.............. this is down right funny................Eye-runny........
nowarningshot
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Used a 375 Rum as my general rifle for about 10 years. Recoil needed to be tamed with a brake. The use of different projectiles make it versatile; however, one does not usually carry more than one load, so compromises still happen.
For 95% of north america where the largest animal wanting to eat you would be a sub 400lb Blackie, anything over 300wm or 338 wm is overkill. Many take a two gun battery to Africa; a large and a medium. My 375 Rum is really neither, but i dont feel overgunned in the BC Peace with it.
For 95% of north america where the largest animal wanting to eat you would be a sub 400lb Blackie, anything over 300wm or 338 wm is overkill. Many take a two gun battery to Africa; a large and a medium. My 375 Rum is really neither, but i dont feel overgunned in the BC Peace with it.
c-fbmi
Just as I figured, you have nothing else to learn. Not discrediting your 4.5 decades of research, you did the best you could with the tools that you were willing to use. It's 2016 now and there is a less onerous method to get a good initial load.
If you took the time and removed the prejudges and studied the QL program you will be enlightened. With my mere 4 decades in the loading/shooting game my eyes were opened wide. Old myths on what powders were best with a certain combination of components were dispelled or at least understood.
I suggest that you mellow out and consider what I have tried to explain, I'll repeat the key components and for you I will type real slow.
1 Obtain and study the QL program
2 Buy a LabRader, as accurate velocities are the foundation
3 Choose a cartridge/bullet combination
4 Input all measurements into the program
5 Model several powders and select one that has an optimum burn time
6 Select that one and run (model) charge weights that do not exceed max pressure and fall on a barrel node
7 Load 5 rounds, fire and record velocities
8 Adjust parameters in the program to line up predicted vs actual velocities
9 Adjust charge weight back to the node.
10 Fire groups and report back, usually this methodology will get you the best load the rifle will shoot with the expenditure of 10 rounds given that you shoot a 5 shot group.
With standard benchrest handload techniques, optimized burn of the powder you will find ES will dive into the single digits.
Now I left some 'magic' out, that will be yours to discover.
Question: you have done exhaustive testing and come up with a load in the 0.1 moa range. You run out of bullets and start a new lot, group opens up or you run out of powder, go to a new lot , groups open up, new same brand cases groups open up or the temperature changes from 40F to 70F groups open up. What do you do to get things back in tune?
The 30-06 hunting example is a load developed at my computer for a specific task within the confines of the components and rifle /scope combination. It was an illustration to show you that there are different methodologies in the new age that basically render the old obsolete but still doable if you have nothing else going on.
One more thing, last year with the same methodology I used an off the shelf Tikka / Tactical in 300 WM, printed a 5 shot 4" group at 1050yds which won the category I was in, this was-is not a fluke but a regular occurrence for that rifle.
I don't expect you or anyone else to be impressed, just that there is technology available to the hobbyist to streamline the process.
Just as I figured, you have nothing else to learn. Not discrediting your 4.5 decades of research, you did the best you could with the tools that you were willing to use. It's 2016 now and there is a less onerous method to get a good initial load.
If you took the time and removed the prejudges and studied the QL program you will be enlightened. With my mere 4 decades in the loading/shooting game my eyes were opened wide. Old myths on what powders were best with a certain combination of components were dispelled or at least understood.
I suggest that you mellow out and consider what I have tried to explain, I'll repeat the key components and for you I will type real slow.
1 Obtain and study the QL program
2 Buy a LabRader, as accurate velocities are the foundation
3 Choose a cartridge/bullet combination
4 Input all measurements into the program
5 Model several powders and select one that has an optimum burn time
6 Select that one and run (model) charge weights that do not exceed max pressure and fall on a barrel node
7 Load 5 rounds, fire and record velocities
8 Adjust parameters in the program to line up predicted vs actual velocities
9 Adjust charge weight back to the node.
10 Fire groups and report back, usually this methodology will get you the best load the rifle will shoot with the expenditure of 10 rounds given that you shoot a 5 shot group.
With standard benchrest handload techniques, optimized burn of the powder you will find ES will dive into the single digits.
Now I left some 'magic' out, that will be yours to discover.
Question: you have done exhaustive testing and come up with a load in the 0.1 moa range. You run out of bullets and start a new lot, group opens up or you run out of powder, go to a new lot , groups open up, new same brand cases groups open up or the temperature changes from 40F to 70F groups open up. What do you do to get things back in tune?
The 30-06 hunting example is a load developed at my computer for a specific task within the confines of the components and rifle /scope combination. It was an illustration to show you that there are different methodologies in the new age that basically render the old obsolete but still doable if you have nothing else going on.
One more thing, last year with the same methodology I used an off the shelf Tikka / Tactical in 300 WM, printed a 5 shot 4" group at 1050yds which won the category I was in, this was-is not a fluke but a regular occurrence for that rifle.
I don't expect you or anyone else to be impressed, just that there is technology available to the hobbyist to streamline the process.
I'm really enjoying this conversation and your insight. I've got the QL program but admittedly haven't used it except to glance through it. At first I thought it was just something that you punch in your cartridge and other basic info and it spews out a load for you. It's much more than an electronic loading manual, and your posts really show that it's capabilities are way beyond what I thought.
I'm sure you are like me and most handloaders in that you have worked up loads for whatever purpose required via traditional methods like experimenting with powder charges, bullets, seating depths, velocities, bullet and case concentricity and a bit of voodoo at times.
Your methodology illustrates a more direct, science based line from A to B.
Unwillingness to look at anything new is something that has always been a trait of some (many?) hunters and shooters. We saw it when "plastic" rifles showed up, hunters said they would never look at anything other than walnut and blue. . Whenever a new cartridge has been introduced, there are detractors. Guys think that paying extra for Nosler Partitions or TSX bullets is a rip off...To them, new stuff is bad.
So it's no wonder that there are some handloaders that are suspicious (threatened?) by a computer program that- when used correctly- can streamline the whole process. Gradually there is more acceptance of new stuff, and I suspect as more people buy Labradar devices and experiment with QL like you have, it will become as accepted as S/S rifles, which seem to outnumber the wood/blue ones in the field in BC now.
Thanks Mr Gate, you understand where I'm coming from. People get defensive about ways that worked for them in the past. My vocational background makes the transition to this technology relatively easy but I still refer to the QL manual when I run into things I do not understand, also I have shooting friend that challenges me as well. The QL program does not do everything for you, you need to understand the concepts and work the program to your benefit.
If you have anything I can help with PM me here or HBC, it helps me get further into it.
If you have anything I can help with PM me here or HBC, it helps me get further into it.
Iron Sighted
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Peace Region
What is the cost of a Labradar, and who retails them in Canada? I have a CED chronograph that I have generally been fairly happy with, but if I can get something that is repeatedly more accurate regardless of light conditions I would prefer that, though I assume they are probably way more money than I'm currently willing to spend.
BCBRAD..........As I suspected you addressed none of my questions about internal or external ballistics..........I realize that you understand your computer program and it assists you in your load development, which is all fine and well, but it was you who demeaned me as to not understanding internal or external ballistics and called me a "dummy" not the other way around, as I seldom, if ever get involved in name calling and personal insults. I can assure you there is nothing you can or have done with that computer program that I have not done without it. You may call my methods "old school" and look down upon me as antiquated but I can assure you I have gone so far beyond what that computer program can do for you, it would literally boggle your mind. I am not adverse to new technology but I can assure you your precious computer program knows nothing that I don't already know. It takes established norms and spits out a load that SHOULD be good, but it can't find the different nodes of different rifle barrels, it can't recognize the eccentricities of particular rifles, it doesn't take into account the different hardness of different manufacturers brass. For all it can do there is so much more it cannot do, and this is where my methods shine as each rifle, brass, cartridge, primer, powder and bullet combination is unique and must be treated as such to gain the utmost from each individual rifle..........your computer just simply cannot and will not do this......period.
I'm still interested in what your computer program and loading experience has to say about extended flash tubes, multiple flash holes, duplex loads, frictional coefficients and the like. Anytime you'd care to compare notes I'm here............
I'm still interested in what your computer program and loading experience has to say about extended flash tubes, multiple flash holes, duplex loads, frictional coefficients and the like. Anytime you'd care to compare notes I'm here............
Last edited:
- Location
- Southern Vancouver Island
To add to the OP's post, the .378 Weatherby is a beauty all-rounder for anything that walks as well as being very versatile for reduced loads for folks that don't like the smack from full-house factory loads. Fer instance, fill the case to the base of a 300 gr. jacketed bullet with Trail Boss powder and you'll get about 2100 fps. which gives plenty of penetration for N.A. critters inside of 200 yds. and shoots straight to boot if the shooter does his/her part. Call it a bigger (Quite bigger.) version of a .375 Winchester.
For us folk that shoot cast, the above load should be reduced about 10 percent to give similar velocity using gas checked boolits of the same weight. The options are many for .378 WM when using powders like 5744, 4759, 4198 etc.,as one can load the bugger down to near air rifle velocities and up to long range loads & have a lot of fun with it, as well as putting meat in the freezer.
Reduced loading on this big bastard demands the use of a pinch of kapok filler to hold the powder in place along with a standard large rifle primer to get best results. No computer programs needed, just a chrony and some target work to verify velocities and accuracy for the game & range intended.
Loaded up or down, the .378 WM can be a super (Though not cheap.) cartridge to play with.
For us folk that shoot cast, the above load should be reduced about 10 percent to give similar velocity using gas checked boolits of the same weight. The options are many for .378 WM when using powders like 5744, 4759, 4198 etc.,as one can load the bugger down to near air rifle velocities and up to long range loads & have a lot of fun with it, as well as putting meat in the freezer.
Reduced loading on this big bastard demands the use of a pinch of kapok filler to hold the powder in place along with a standard large rifle primer to get best results. No computer programs needed, just a chrony and some target work to verify velocities and accuracy for the game & range intended.
Loaded up or down, the .378 WM can be a super (Though not cheap.) cartridge to play with.
