There's a lot of talk about 'brush guns'

[vpsalin]

There's a lot of talk lately about 'brush guns'. Namely how sometimes a typical bolt action rifle isn't always the best tool for the job especially for close range work. Hence, we hear a lot about 30-30 or 45-70 type rifles as being excellent 'brush guns'. I'm wondering, why is it that dedicated slug guns are not often mentioned when it comes down to 'brush gun' discussions? The way I see it, most of us can simply recycle our existing pump action shotguns to shoot sabot slugs with the simple addition of a rifled barrel and perhaps a medium powered scope. That would make for a hard to beat 'brush gun' alternative and for relatively little coin.

Take out the bolt gun when medium/far shots are required and take out the slug gun when close/medium shots are expected. Take out both guns if in a pinch one was expected to replace the other in the event of a mechanical failure. They seem to compliment each other quite nicely. This is of course, not forgetting that a slug gun can be made to hunt small game quickly and easily with a simple smooth bore barrel swap, something which most typical 'brush guns' cannot do.

I don't picture many creatures being able to survive a 20ga sabot at close/medium range let alone a 12ga sabot slug. It seems to me that the era of the 30-30 and 45-70 type guns is slowly coming to end and perhaps they will slowly be replaced by the dedicated slug gun when it comes down to brush use.

On a side note, does it make sense to you that my province allows the use of the .243 for moose and caribou but not 20ga sabot slugs? I find that hard to comprehend. IMO the limited effective range of a 243 on a moose is 150 yards and a sabot slug at that range would be better suited, no !?

 

[Brutus]

I think at normal brush ranges, just about everything you mentioned would work fine 99 times out of 100.
I have a 20 gauge fully rifled shotgun, several 12 gauge smoothbore pump action slug guns, 30-30s, and a bolt action 458x2inch American on a Mauser action, several other .30 calibre deer rifles.
IMO, they all have merit in thier own right.
As far as using a slug gun to shoot small game on a big game hunt? Sure I've done this exact same thing while solo hunting. But I most likely would not do this while in the party of a group of other deer hunters. There is one big downside to factory sabot slugs: Cost, 14 or 17 bucks for a 5 pack does not amour itself to a healthy long term market.
Besides I've taken WT deer at fairly long range with my 30-30 levergun, so let's not paint with a wide brush here.
The 30-30 and 45-70 cartridges have been around for a very long time. I suspect they still will be taking game long after we are 6 feet under.

 

[Ruffed Grouse]

To me a brush gun is more personal than anything. I think that the side of the discussion about bigger slow moving bullets going through brush is a much more minor consideration. The point is to get a solid shot off smoothly. For many people this will be most doable with their main hunting rifle(s), i.e., what they practice with, rather than what works best on paper. Except for those who's hunting style is such that their main hunting rig is some big heavy specialized long range set-up, I bet 99% of folks would be best off in brush with whatever they practice with most, even if that's not a classic "brush gun".

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[captonion]

A brush gun IMO is less about caliber or action type, and more about how fast as it handles as a package....It has to have the right combo of fit, and fast aquire optics/sights, which together get the shooter on target in the fastest possible manner on often moving game at short, to moderate ranges...

A brush gun doesn't has to be a lever gun that tosses heavy lead..It can be a bolt, pump, semi,lever, or a single in most any cal the hunter desires...It can be equipped with open sights(slowest IMO), peep, red dot, or a low powered scope, just so long as the shooter can get on target FAST..

I like a 760/7600 with a 1.75-6 Leupold with heavy duplex as my brush gun...This set up has worked very well for me in the rather thick bush we hunt with dogs...If I am pushing bush I usually use a carbine with a peep...I find a scope to be a hastle if the bush isn't totally dry, otherwise I have water dotted/fogged lenses, with pieces of bush stuck to them..

I think that the side of the discussion about bigger slow moving bullets going through brush is a much more minor consideration.

This is the biggest inaccuracy most hunters hold to be true.....I was in this group for a good number of years...

It's far better to have a set up that gets you on target fast(shooting through windows), than it is pointing a rifle at game in hopes the bullet makes its way though the brush...If there is brush/small trees between your line of sight, and what your shooting at, you aren't on target...

 

[Boomer]

In today's hunting environment, it would be uncommon to hunt in thick bush without coming to a clear cut, a powerline, an access road, not to mention natural open areas like lakes, rivers, swamps, and tundra that have always been encountered in the bush. The rifle, even those chambered for moderate velocity cartridges, trump a shotgun for use over typical hunting ranges. The point of a short, fast handling rifle is that you can make that close range snap shot in thick cover, but the fact that you've chosen a rifle means that you can reach out to a quarter mile should conditions allow. IMHO, the only reason to hunt with a shotgun rather then a rifle is because you: A) want to shoot game birds and/or small game while in the field, B) because you own a shotgun but not a rifle C) because the use of a shotgun its mandated by law for big game in your particular area.

The idea that a bolt action rifle is unsuitable for fast action shooting compared to other rifle actions is flawed. The speed of a follow up shot is determined more by technique then by the choice of the rifle action. Often we see or hear about folks who take a rifle shot at a big game animal then take the rifle off their shoulder to work the action and admire their handiwork. If you're going to shoot like that, I can put more rounds on target in 5 seconds with a bolt gun then you can with a semi-auto, over the same time period. When a rifle recoils, sight of the target is briefly lost. As the rifle is brought down out of recoil, the action is cycled and the target reacquired, only then can a follow-up shot be taken if its required. These actions take time, and the style of action has little to do with the amount of time it takes. But, if the rifle is lowered to waist height, it takes so much time to get back on target, that the chances of making a successful follow-up shot are greatly reduced.

 

[rral22]

In today's hunting environment, it would be uncommon to hunt in thick bush without coming to a clear cut, a powerline, an access road, not to mention natural open areas like lakes, rivers, swamps, and tundra that have always been encountered in the bush. The rifle, even those chambered for moderate velocity cartridges, trump a shotgun for use over typical hunting ranges. The point of a short, fast handling rifle is that you can make that close range snap shot in thick cover, but the fact that you've chosen a rifle means that you can reach out to a quarter mile should conditions allow. IMHO, the only reason to hunt with a shotgun rather then a rifle is because you: A) want to shoot game birds and/or small game while in the field, B) because you own a shotgun but not a rifle C) because the use of a shotgun its mandated by law for big game in your particular area.

The idea that a bolt action rifle is unsuitable for fast action shooting compared to other rifle actions is flawed. The speed of a follow up shot is determined more by technique then by the choice of the rifle action. Often we see or hear about folks who take a rifle shot at a big game animal then take the rifle off their shoulder to work the action and admire their handiwork. If you're going to shoot like that, I can put more rounds on target in 5 seconds with a bolt gun then you can with a semi-auto, over the same time period. When a rifle recoils, sight of the target is briefly lost. As the rifle is brought down out of recoil, the action is cycled and the target reacquired, only then can a follow-up shot be taken if its required. These actions take time, and the style of action has little to do with the amount of time it takes. But, if the rifle is lowered to waist height, it takes so much time to get back on target, that the chances of making a successful follow-up shot are greatly reduced.

I agree. A bolt action rifle, scoped properly, is the most versatile hunting tool I can use.

 

[caramel]

My Rossi Hand 44 mag coupled to a full stock really is my definition of a brush gun and up to 100 metres is very deadly, last year on Anticosti this rig got a nice buck, it's coming back this year... JP.

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[captonion]

My Rossi Hand 44 mag coupled to a full stock really is my definition of a brush gun

Nice!
Slap a peep on there, and now we are really talking...Better accuracy from a longer sight radius & faster target acquisition of the peep would be the cherry on top....

 

[Ormachek]

Ya, recycling your existing shotgun works fine for a brush gun. But wheres the fun in that? "I need a brush gun" is a great excuse to buy another rifle!

 

[Paatz]

A lever would be most people's choice, but my Remington Gamemaster pump in .35 Remington is my "go to" brush gun. The pump is great alternative to a lever for fast follow-up shots. Pretty thick bush here, no scope.
Bolts just aren't streamlined enough with that handle sticking out.

 

[tjhaile]

In today's hunting environment, it would be uncommon to hunt in thick bush without coming to a clear cut, a powerline, an access road, not to mention natural open areas like lakes, rivers, swamps, and tundra that have always been encountered in the bush. The rifle, even those chambered for moderate velocity cartridges, trump a shotgun for use over typical hunting ranges. The point of a short, fast handling rifle is that you can make that close range snap shot in thick cover, but the fact that you've chosen a rifle means that you can reach out to a quarter mile should conditions allow. IMHO, the only reason to hunt with a shotgun rather then a rifle is because you: A) want to shoot game birds and/or small game while in the field, B) because you own a shotgun but not a rifle C) because the use of a shotgun its mandated by law for big game in your particular area.

The idea that a bolt action rifle is unsuitable for fast action shooting compared to other rifle actions is flawed. The speed of a follow up shot is determined more by technique then by the choice of the rifle action. Often we see or hear about folks who take a rifle shot at a big game animal then take the rifle off their shoulder to work the action and admire their handiwork. If you're going to shoot like that, I can put more rounds on target in 5 seconds with a bolt gun then you can with a semi-auto, over the same time period. When a rifle recoils, sight of the target is briefly lost. As the rifle is brought down out of recoil, the action is cycled and the target reacquired, only then can a follow-up shot be taken if its required. These actions take time, and the style of action has little to do with the amount of time it takes. But, if the rifle is lowered to waist height, it takes so much time to get back on target, that the chances of making a successful follow-up shot are greatly reduced.

To this I would add two points:

1. Bolt actions can also be had in short, lightweight configurations.
2. Low magnification (e.g. 1-4x, 1.5-6x) variable power scopes can be potentially more usable than iron sights close in while still having the ability to dial up the magnification for long shots.

 

[mlehtovaara]

Having hunted the last couple seasons in a shotgun only WMU, I am more than excited to be able to bring out the Chopped Sportered Mauser in 6.5x55 this year!

Running deer and slow moving slugs just don't go well together at any distances, and let's not get started on those long shots that just aren't options with a standard slug.

Sabots are just far too expensive for me to practice enough with so no help there.

 

[brybenn]

My bush gun is a double in 4570. Its lighter faster and better balanced then my slug gun. It wears a 2.5x20mm scope. I use my bolt gun for 150+ yard shots

 

[philthygeezer]

I don't understand how a 16-20" carbine would point better than the 26" 870 people lug around for grouse.

Off-hand and quick doesn't necessarily mean stubby in the brush. A 22" Winchester featherweight with a dot sight seems to be one of the fastest rifles I can aim.

 

[9.3mauser]

A brush gun IMO is less about caliber or action type, and more about how fast as it handles as a package....It has to have the right combo of fit, and fast aquire optics/sights, which together get the shooter on target in the fastest possible manner on often moving game at short, to moderate ranges...

A brush gun doesn't has to be a lever gun that tosses heavy lead..It can be a bolt, pump, semi,lever, or a single in most any cal the hunter desires...It can be equipped with open sights(slowest IMO), peep, red dot, or a low powered scope, just so long as the shooter can get on target FAST..

I like a 760/7600 with a 1.75-6 Leupold with heavy duplex as my brush gun...This set up has worked very well for me in the rather thick bush we hunt with dogs...If I am pushing bush I usually use a carbine with a peep...I find a scope to be a hastle if the bush isn't totally dry, otherwise I have water dotted/fogged lenses, with pieces of bush stuck to them..



This is the biggest inaccuracy most hunters hold to be true.....I was in this group for a good number of years...

It's far better to have a set up that gets you on target fast(shooting through windows), than it is pointing a rifle at game in hopes the bullet makes its way though the brush...If there is brush/small trees between your line of sight, and what your shooting at, you aren't on target...

Never thought I'd be agreeing with a guy that shoots his moose with a 25-06, but he got it right this time

I don't have dedicated brush or long range rifles, I choose rifles that work well in either role. My 7x57 will reach out to 300 yards and beyond, yet handles well enough for close fast shooting. If I take the scope off (nuisance in rain or snow) it doesn't weigh much more that a fully loaded 30-30, but has a lot more punch. You need a cartridge with good penetration so you can shoot at any reasonable angle; you can't always wait for your game to move just so and give you a perfect broadside. No texas heart shots though. Likewise for my 9.3x62 moose rifle; light and fast handling, lots of punch, and can reach out there if I need it to.

I do like to have open sights on the barrel, with QD mounts. I realize there are benefits to scopes, but sometimes they're just a PIA, and I have had scopes crap-out on a hunt with no back-up. Sucks.

 

[NorthernMopar]

Well, my question would be - what is the bush you expect to be in, and what in that bush do you expect to want to/have to shoot at? For where I am, the risk of coming across a rather large, irate griz does exist strongly; and if its charging, I wouldnt want to wait till it was within the 100 foot or so range that a shotgun may be limited to (depending on load). Overall I do think the 30/30 lever has made itself to be one of the best midrange guns - ie bush range. But, I may be speaking out of my ass here; given that while living in the bush I have yet (YET!) to be charged by a griz. I just know from seeing their hides up close, I would prefer erring on the side of caution - that bigger is better.

Me, I don't hunt alone anyway - usually there's at least two or three of us, one always has a 30/30 (Cause that's what we got), one has a .303 or .308, and of course, chicken guns. (and No, not the RCAF's 'Chicken Cannon'; though it does need to be resurrected...)

 

[mlehtovaara]

I don't understand how a 16-20" carbine would point better than the 26" 870 people lug around for grouse.

Off-hand and quick doesn't necessarily mean stubby in the brush. A 22" Winchester featherweight with a dot sight seems to be one of the fastest rifles I can aim.

In thick "brush" swinging your gun is a lot more difficult with a long barrel.

My grouse gun is a youth model single shot .22 for this very reason. Chasing them into the pine trees is not easy with a long gun!

 

[Calum]

In some places in NA the SKS is the brush gun of choice for some.

For me it is a light, short rifle, with iron sights.

 

[Demonical]

The whole idea that you've got to have a lever, pump, semi-auto, when hunting in the timber, implies that you expect to miss with your first shot.

It doesn't matter what action type you use, as long as can shoot accurately with it. Use an adequate caliber-bullet etc...

 

[ruffbird]

My 870 remington shotgun is kept for grouse hunting only, because it can't be fitted with a slug barrel! It is one of those "Special Field" models....
I don't want another shotgun!

I like the idea of a lightweight, short pistol cartridge rifle for brush hunting distances at bigger game. I do have a variety of Marlin lever rifles in .32 Mag, .357 mag, .44 mag & .45 colt to choose from.

Then there is a sweet Ruger bolt 77/357 or a #3 in .44 mag also....

Now if we could only get the laws changed to use handguns for hunting. They would also make for a good brush gun....

JMHO.....