Thick patching a smaller ball

plinker 777

plinker 777

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Hey guys; I have a .45 and a .47 cal percussion cap rifles circa 1860. The .45 isn't an issue but the .47 is. I can't locate a mold, and I can't buy .47 cal balls off the shelf.
My question is; is it advisable to patch a .45 cal ball with a thicker patch in a .47 cal bore?
I'm open to your experience, Plinker777
 
I have a .45 cal. rifle which uses a .440 ball with patch and a .44 cal revolver that uses a .454 ball which would be closer to your .47 cal rifle. The .454 cal balls are very common and so are the molds.
I don't know what size ball your .47 cal rifle needs but with a .454 ball and a 10/1000 inch patch it would be .474 which may be tight.
 
Accuracy probably will suffer if you're trying to make up too much of a difference but it would be shootable until you find a mould. I've run some combinations in mine with no ill effects...within reason of course.

Just don't have the fit too tight - but there is a nice selection of RB sizes and no end to suitable fabrics of varying thicknesses.
 
Jeff Tanner makes molds in any size desired and at a very reasonable price. do a google search for him. I have heard that his north american orders appear to be filled in the US which greatly reduces shipping time

cheers mooncoon
 
Thanks guys. I guess in my ignorance I thought that a .47 cal rifle would take a .47 cal ball!? I've never fired either of these rifles and as such I don't know how "tight" is too tight or what too loose "feels" like for that matter.
I have patches and .45 cal balls (off the shelf) and a .45 cal rifle, so am i good to go with say...how much powder (FF) to start?
Mooncoon, can I ask Jeff Tanner for a .47 mold and it will work for the rifle? Should I try Skinny's suggestion and try .454 first?
 
Hey Plinker your .47 will either take a .460 or .465 mold then you determine your patch thickness. I think the rule of thumb is to put a ball in your hand and pour powder on it until it's covered. But don't quote me on that Moon is much more an expert than I. Personaly I would use 40-45grns to start from
 
If you are using Goex FFG which is usually used in .50 cal and larger you may have to adjust from the loads recommended here:

http://www.goexpowder.com/images/LoadCharts/RB-Rifle-Musket.pdf

I have found that 40 grains of FFFG is plenty for my .45 cal CVA and may work well with your rifle even though you have FFG granulation.
It is a fair bet that Mooncoon has pushed a lot more balls into muzzle loaders than I have so I will let him describe what it should feel like. :popCorn:
 
ball size

another mould you could try is the .457 used for the ruger old army. this would suggest a 10 thou patch and i would use 45 grains fffg. old rule of thumb for target shooting is load your caliber then work up or down in 5 grain increments to find the sweet spot for your piece. cheers
 
You can also get .457 which i use in my ruger old army pistol. I would think a .015 patch would be enough to get you a decently tight fit. if not try .020

just realized wr made the same suggestions.
 
plinker 777 said:
Mooncoon, can I ask Jeff Tanner for a .47 mold and it will work for the rifle? Should I try Skinny's suggestion and try .454 first?
Click to expand...

My usual rule of thumb has been to use a ball which is 10 thou undersize, so for a 470 bore, I would use a 460 ball. I had forgotten about the 457 molds for revolvers so if you can find one of them or someone with one, it would be a good choice to start with. My impression is that you can order whatever diameter you want from Jeff Tanner; he has a web site so do a google search and check out his ordering proceedures. My speculation is that he has a CAD program type lathe and simply turns them out on demand. Further speculation from friends who have bought from him, is that he contracts out North American orders from somewhere in the US but in a practical sense that is unimportant. Important thing is that he supplies custom molds at a reasonable price.

In terms of pressure, I use a mallet shaped short starter with a head made of moose antler. To me that is a much more useful shape that the ball headed ones. I normally have to give the ball a couple of smacks with my hand to start it. The handle on my starter is 8 or 9" long which gets the ball well down in the barrel. From there I use a series of short taps of about 6" each with my wooden ramrod to seat the ball and I have a mark on the rod to show when the ball is seated properly Perhaps more importantly I do not use massive smacks with either the short starter or the rod to seat the ball. I have used very thick patches and while accurate I also ended up with a sore hand by the end of a trail. The thinner patches seem just as accurate and are much easier to seat

For powder charge, I shoot 3F because it pours nicely and because I get less fouling than with courser powders. I currently shoot a 50 cal with
50 grains for most targets but would step that up to about 70 grains for hunting. Your gun is only a little smaller than mine so I would suggest trying about 40 grains of 3F. Having said that, some guns are fussy about powder charge so start at say 30 grains and go up in 5 grain jumps shooting 5 shot groups at say 50 yards to see how much difference it makes. My 50 cal has a slow twist and it does not make a lot of difference how much powder I use, in terms of accuracy. On the other hand I also have a 32, and it likes 25 or 30 grains and the group opens considerably when I use less.

cheers mooncoon
 
'K...so with all the support here I was inspired to take this 160 year old rifle apart. To my utter amazement I don't think I messed anything up :D The stock was as dry as you could well imagine and I have it slathered in linseed oil as we speak. I was also amazed that the breech plug came out :eek:. The barrel is dark in the recesses but the rifling itself looks very good.
I took 1 of the .45cal balls {mooncoon, I've now noticed the balls are actually .44 on the box} and slugged the barrel without a patch to get a feel for it. The muzzle end was tight, really tight until about 8 inches down then it was much easier { I'm thinking it took 8 inches to groove the ball??} I can't even imagine how tight that would be with a patch. Its a good thing I bought a fiber ram rod, I can see me breaking the hickory one.
On the breech face next to the plug tang is stamped 7 1/4...is this the twist rate for this barrel?
One more thing guys. The plug is drilled straight through the threads {maybe 3/16 hole}, should I pack this hole with grease or neverseize? It seems to me to be a means of lubricating the threads when inside the barrel. I had penetrating oil sitting on top of this plug for 3 months {down the barrel} and I'm positive that is the only reason the plug came out and I'd like to keep it that way.

thanks again, plinker 777

Oh yea; the .44 cal ball fell down the barrel of the .47 cal rifle. It barely if at all even contacts the rifling, cushion of air rushing out the nipple is the only resistance. So I'm on the hunt for a 460/ .46cal ball mold...good luck right! Jeff Tanner will be receiving some of my cash I do believe.
 
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