Thinking about a Gew 98...

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...to go with my K98, so have some questions.

I've gone through Mr. Ball's Mauser book but I'd like to get input from the Gew 98 owners here as I consider looking for one.

- Overall, what's your experience been with searching and shooting the rifles?
- What's fragile/prone to breaking?
- Things to check when assessing one for purchase? (aside from bore condition and headspace)
- What replacement bits are impossible to source (and if missing from a rifle might act as a deal-breaker)?
- Prices these days? (shooter grade)

Of course, brag photos of your Gew 98s welcomed.
 
Thanks for the mention, Artyman, I will be doing a Gewehr 98 range report soon as I am currently awaiting word on my restoration project from the gun smith.

Presently, I own four Gewehr 98s and one 1908 Brazilian (haven't taken the 1908 out to the range yet), three are in their original trim, one was post WW1 refurbished, and the other is a Gewehr 98 that was turned into a sporter. The 1908 is by far the best made rifle of any Mausers I have run into. Commercial quality cannot compare to war time make. All four are great shooters, my two Gewehr 98s in full military trim being the best. How accurate ? Deadly accurate is all I have to say. Free handing at 100m got me tight groups with hand loaded rounds.

Whats fragile and prone to breaking ? Probably the only thing I can think of is the extractor (whatever you do, do not remove it from the bolt, just clean around it). These rifles were built to be rugged and durable and they prove themselves a century later. Everything else is pretty rock solid.

What to check for ? Keep an eye out for any cracks in the stock and any barrel bulges near muzzle. I haven't seen any but with some of the vet bring backs, some of these are untouched since the war. One of my Gewehr 98s was like this, quite litterly untouched since WW1, and she needed some serious love to be brought back to shooting condition but now she is one of the more accurate Gewehr 98s I own.

As for missing bits, you generally see missing cleaning rods, sometimes lock screws, and slings. Probably the most impossible piece to source out would be the muzzle cover. You can find replacement pieces for cleaning rods and slings on sites like E-bay. I can also recommend a seller from the U.S. that makes slings by hand just like the originals and they won't cost you an arm and a leg either. I have a seller in Germany that has Gewehr 98 length cleaning rods that fit perfectly in two of my Gewehr 98s that were missing them originally.

Price ranges sit around the $500-600 for a shooter grade mis-matched rifle in Imperial trim (correct me if I wrong). You will see them go all the way up to $1200 for an all matching, very good condition, Imperial trim rifle. Sometimes you will find yourself with a deal that is just too hard to pass up. As an example, this was the case with my Sterngewehr (star rifle). She was the one that was a vet bring back from WW1 (not duffle cut either!) but not touched since the great war. To give you a quick run down:

Bolt rusted shut, floor plate and follower rusted together and to the bottom of the trigger guard. Screws unturnable without stripping. Bore looked like a 6mm. Lange sight rust frozen in place. All metal exterior parts covered in very thick rust. Despite this, she is all matching and even has her original cleaning rod (something that, again, is almost always missing). It took about four months of careful cleaning, but now the bore is very good with strong lands (the caked in stuff I thought was rust was actually hardened mud). Some of the rust was taken off but I decided in the end to leave it on parts that did not affect functionality (i.e. the front band and bayonet lug). All parts and screws are able to function without hinderance. In the end, a rifle that now probably sits around the $1200-1500 range was acquired for less than half. At the range for the first time in what must have been almost a century, she was getting deadly accurate groups free handing and, aside from my Gewehr 88s that day, was the most accurate of all my rifles. There is a video of me shooting her for the first time on youtube (Link here).

Keep your eyes open, do your homework so as to be able to recognize different variations, years, maker marks...etc. There are different variations of Gewehr 98s as the great war came to a close. Some variations command a much higher price premium than others (i.e. Sterngewehrs, primary manufactuers i.e. Mauser Oberndorf and DWM). Some are post war refurbished by the Weimar Republic and/or Third Reich. In some cases, variations in refurbishment here can have price premiums attached. Again, you'll have to do your homework, find something that interests you, and go hunting for it.

If you wish, I can post some pictures of my 98s as a guide for references. I highly recommend you pick up the book "Rifle and Carbine 98" by Dieter Storz. It is an expensive book (had to get my copy off of E-bay from the U.S.) but will give you every little detail on the Gewehr 98 and Kar 98 that you can hope for.

Keep us posted as to what you pick up :D.
 
Alright, I will try to make some time, either today or tomorrow, and post pictures of my 98s while giving a good run down of the differences and what features/markings to look out for.
 
Sidney I. Robinson in Winnipeg sold off a bunch of these about 15 years ago, super special pricing. I got a pair for $106.95 apiece.

One was a 1915/1920 double-date, making it a Reichswehr rifle, Lange sight changed-out for the more modern type, good bore. It's a good shooter and it is an original Mauser/Oberndorf, so I have nothing to complain about.

The other was a "black" rifle, marked Kar 98b, from the von Seeckt secret program in the middle 1920s, bore was pristine, NO date, NO factory marks, excellent finish on action and barrel.

That's the good part.

The bad part was that, as with all the rifles in that particular batch, they had been to POLAND and the numbers were HOPELESSLY scrambled. I think even the rust spots had different numbers!

Still, I did get two nice shooters out of it. They get loaned out a fair bit for re-enactment photos.... and I can honestly say that I DO own two real Mauser/Oberndorf rifles. The 1915/1920 shoots about 1.5 MOA, the undated 98b shoots tighter than that but I'm not good enough these days to really wring her out.

Small bits, cleaning rods, band screws, Lange sights, lock screws and so forth ARE available; it's getting them out of the oh-so-free USA and into oh-so-free Canada that's the hard part.

Good luck.
.
 
I own a Gew 98, reworked to 98k specs and then reworked by the IDF for 7.62 NATO. No cleaning rod, but everything eles is there. It shoots nicely, I have never measured the MOA but I have put holes in holes... no skill on my part tho, but hey, if you shot a big enough gorup your bound to. I cant really say I own a Gew98.. its been reworked to many times.
 
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Alright, here we we are. First off, let me apologise for the number of images, I had to work to distill the amount down from ~260 at the start. I also did my best to make them 56k user friendly.

So, without further adieu, lets have some fun.

An overview of the firearms to be used in my explanations.

Top to bottom:

-Gewehr 98 Erfurt 1916 *
-Gewehr 98 Mauser Oberndorf 1916
-Gewehr 98b Danzig 1917
-Kar98 Danzig 1918/1920

I included the Kar98 because she is in late war trim and showcases the proper beech stock, take down disc, and finger grasping grooves that can be found on 1917-1918 Gewehr 98s.

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First to be examined is my Erfurt 1916 *

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Take close note of the hole in the front of the trigger guard. This can be found on Gewehr 98s (and some contract rifles). It is used in conjunction with the quick detach sling swivel for parade use and is your first clue to identifying an Imperial Gewehr 98.

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Out of interest, I put an original Gewehr 98 cleaning rod (top) beside a reproduction one (bottom). You can see the visual differences as well as a length difference but not every Gewehr 98 cleaning rod is the same. Take note of the threading difference. The original one is not serial numbered but does have an Imperial proof mark just below the cleaning patch slot.

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We now come to the receiver of the Erfurt. You can tell this one is a Sterngewehr (star rifle) by the " * " stamped on the top of the receiver. This indicates the rifle was built with one or more sub contracted parts. A very interesting concept for 1916 in an attempt to reduce the bottleneck in Gewehr 98 production. It is not known how many were made but I am told the vast majority of them were used and abused quite heavily. Today they are quite uncommon to run into.

Take note that Sterngewehrs use numbers instead of suffix letters to denote production blocks. You will find this "number suffix" stamped on the receiver, the bolt under the serial number, and on the butt plate tang.

Take an additional note that the receiver is "in the white" and that no post war proof marks have been applied. Land diameter is "7.91" mm.

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Another helpful place to look for Imperial markings is on the recoil lug, left side.

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Sometimes, you'll run into a Gewehr 98 with interesting features. This one has tiger stripping all the way down the left side of the stock. A beautiful addition to say the least.

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The make of model will always be stamped on the left side of the receiver wall. You can run into a few variations in the typeface as well but they will generally fit the same pattern.

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Don't forget to taking a close look at the pistol grip, just behind the rear trigger guard tang. You will notice an Imperial firing proof mark. This mark means the rifle passed the arsenal's firing test and was proof as safe for service.

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Another interesting addition on this particular rifle is that the rear band swivel is oddly offset to the right. I'm not sure if this was due to damage suffered during the Great War or just a out of tolerance part that was deemed usable during manufacturing, but it does make the rifle that much more interesting.

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Gewehr 98 bolt knobs will generally fit this type of visual pattern. If you look closely, you can see the ring where the ball knob was joined with the handle and polished smooth. The bolt will have an Imperial eagle and firing proof mark stamped on the underside, with the full serial number (minus suffix letter) stamped on the upper side.

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Next on the list is my Mauser Oberndorf 1916 and she is an absolute beauty as I am sure you will all agree.

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Present on all Imperial rifles and carbines, you will notice three (sometimes two) highly gothic script characters stamped on the right side of the butt stock just before the unit disc or take down disc. This is another clue to identifying an Imperial German firearm and it can tell you quite a bit as to who the firearm belonged to. Germany may have been unified on a map but each state still clung to it's heritage and as such, so did the men who came from those states who were put into different Army groups. For example, you may notice Bavarian, WĂĽrttemberg, and Prussian regiments listed as fighting in action on the Western front. Having a look at the scriptic letters on the butt stock tell you which state the rifle was assigned to. In this particular example, you will notice the king's initials "F W" under the crown at the top. This means the rifle belong the Prussian army and was the property of the Prussian empire. Got to love German efficiency, eh?

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From 1898 to late 1916 (varied according to production switches to take down disc implementation), Gewehr 98s had unit discs. In the pre-war years, the unit that the rifle was apart of would have their unit number stamped here. By 1916, the general order was to not stamp unit markings anymore incase the rifle may be captured. It was also done, in my opinion, to facilitate easy transfer between units. However, you may still find some unit markings in place regardless.

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Having a look at the butt plate, keep an eye open for the full serial number (minus suffix) stamped on the bottom with an Imperial proof mark just above the bottom screw. The butt plate should also be "in the white".

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At the top of the butt plate tang, you may see a scriptic letter "a". It is another clue to an Imperial Gewehr 98 and it simply means the bolt utilizes "new bolt style components". For more technical details, I must refer you to "Rifle and Carbine 98" by Dieter Storz.

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Having a look at the right side of the receiver, you will notice three Imperial proof marks. From left to right, they mean the rifle passed the: Hardness test, assembly, and final fit examinations.

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The rear sight will be the first dead give away on an Imperial Gewehr 98. It is called a Lange Vizier rear sight but is commonly called a "rollar coaster sight" or "Lange" sight (the latter is what I use). You will notice the minimum range setting is 400m. Ambitious for iron sights but it was the norm at that period for long range accurate fire on a charging enemy. Not so practical for trench warfare in the end but the Lange rear sight continued to be made and used with the Gewehr 98s despite this.

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At maximum setting. I can't imagine trying to get accurate fire out of this at 2km.

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A look at the base of the sight. You will notice the Germans even stamped the range graduations here so as to be easily seen when adjusting the sights.

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Gewehr 98s from the Imperial age will always have a thin rear band with an Imperial proof mark on the right hand side and the last two digits of the serial on the left.

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Same goes for the front band. Take note of the parade hook on the bottom for use with the parade loop on the sling.

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A shot of the front end of the Oberndorf. The bayonet lug should always be "in the white" while the front and rear bands were blued. Mine have lost their bluing over time. Take note of the long style bayonet lug.

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A side shot of the make of model mark. There is a slight font and text style difference but still follows the same pattern as on the Erfurt.

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Finally, we come to the receiver. The workmanship and quality put into this rifle are just amazing for wartime standards. I love the Mauser address on the receiver as well. Nothing to hide in WW1 compared to their short rifle cousins in WW2.

Take note of the small "s" on the barrel and of the land diameter stamp of "7,90". This means the action can accept the Patrone S round and has a land diameter of 7.90mm.

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Next in line, a post war re-work of an Imperial Gewehr 98 with some very interesting features.

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This Gewehr 98b, (I call her that because she has features that put her right in between a Kar98b and a Gewehr 98m), came with a rear sling swivel that had a loop fixed to it already. I have seen this before on one other Gewehr 98m and I assume it was done by Weimar republic.

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Here you can see what is left of the Imperial proofs and King initials on the butt stock. She once belonged to the Prussian empire under Kaiser Wilhelm II.

Take note of the faint Weimar Reich's eagles at the bottom. One of the first clues to a post war Gewehr 98.

On the opposite side is a very faint "1920" as well.

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Another part of the rifle that indeed confirms post war service under the Weimar Republic is the Imperial proof marks on the receiver. They relate to assembly and fit but see the workers markings in between ? Those indicate post war re-working. The crown over "RC" is Imperial era and means the rifle and/or batch failed an inspection but was later examined by a higher inspector and was approved.

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Another hint towards post war re-work and one of the first signs you may notice if you come across a rifle like this. Post WW1, the Weimar republic removed the Lange sights and installed simpler and effective tangent sights graduated from 100m to 2000m. The marking on this particular rear sight base is a Weimar eagle inspector mark with "29" underneath.

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A close up

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Post war, they did away with the thin rear band and opted in for a wider band that was about twice the size. The "SU 50" marking on this band has been linked to HzA Spandau, an early Third Reich era arsenal that performed another re-work during the 1930s.

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This particular rifle retains her original Imperial band complete with parade hook.

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A shot of the front of the rifle. Take note of the blued bayonet lug.

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A most unusual modification to this rifle is the recess and accomadation for a turned down bolt. My research has yet to turn up any other Imperial Gewehr 98s that went this route and I am unable to link this to Germany or post war use at this time.

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A very interesting barrel swap on this rifle during 1939. How often do you see a Third Reich eagle beside an Imperial one ?

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A shot of the left side of the receiver wall. Take note that the font type and style is different but still in the same pattern as before.

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This barrel was part of batch number 53 from ERMA in 1939. Proofed for the spitzer round as well. Land diameter is "7.92"mm.

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WaA 280 linked to ERMA factory.

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The post war replacement tangent rear sight, finished "in the white". It is complete with Weimar proofs and full serial number (minus suffix). Take note of the combination of Imperial era and Weimar proofs indicating a very early re-work during the Weimar Republic. By the mid 1920s, the Imperial era markings were no longer used by the Weimar republic.

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The original barrel to the rifle was proofed for the heavy spitzer round probably during the early to mid 1920s. Take note of the Simson "S" and the Weimar proof mark.

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Full serial number on the front and rear bands.

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Here you can see the faint fire proof markings. The Imperial one is on top and the Third Reich one is below. The Third Reich proof mark more than likely relates to the 1939 barrel replacement.

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Here is the receiver. Take note that it was blued post war but lacks the "1920" mark that is found on the stock. Why this is I do not know but I have not seen another rifle that fits this pattern.

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Next in line for evaluation is my Kar98. Again, I include this carbine because of her late war nature as she sports the typical 1917-1918 looks for an Imperial service firearm.

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A quick look at the butt stock reveals something interesting. Take note of the Kaiser Wilhelm II initial marks beside the Weimar Eagle. The Eagle means the carbine was re-built during the years of the Weimar Republic and proofed again for safe service.

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A late war feature, the finger grasping grooves. Although orders were put through to add finger grasping grooves by mid to late 1916, it took time for the machinery to arrive and get started and this varied for each factory.

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A close up of the take down disc that replaced the unit disc on the Gewehr 98s and a blank spot of wood on the carbines. Same time lag with the progression of the order to swap the unit discs for take down discs in production as with the finger grasping grooves. Gewehr 98s and Kar98s from 1916-1917 can be found with a mix of features. I call them transitional rifles and/or carbines as they may, for instance, have a take down disc but still have a walnut stock or have finger grasping grooves but retain a unit disc.

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On the flip side of the butt stock, you will sometimes see a "1920" marking. This marking was not really special back then but in the collector market it can tell you quite a bit about the firearm in question. For one, this tells you that the firearm, my Kar98 for instance, was in government inventory as of August 1920 and was not part of the disarmament program underway in Germany under pressure from the victorious Triple Entente (France being a big supporter). More so was the fear of communism and of revolution, the last thing a new government needs after coming out of a wartime period. There is much controversy over the marking but the generally accepted idea is that the 1920 mark refers to marking the firearm so that it could not be turned in "again" for food rations or a monetary reward.

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Take note of the land diameter (7.91mm), the "1920" stamp and the Imperial arsenal of Danzig marking with a partially polished off 1918. I do not know what the marking is between the land diameter stamp and the "1920" marking. These late war receivers were typically sand blasted as a final finish for the metal compared to the highly polished "in the white" receivers of 1917 and before.

Side note Kar98 receivers were always blued in Imperial service.

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A good place to check if a bolt is Imperial origin or not is right under the handle base. Take note of the Imperial eagle and fire proof mark.

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A shot of the fore end to showcase the "in the white" bayonet lug and blued barrel band as typically found on Gewehr 98s and Kar98s of the Imperial service.

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There you have it, I hope this has been an informative post. Let me know if you have an questions or anything you wish to point out.

I would also like to humbly request a sticky for this thread so that it can be easily referenced in the future.
 
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Of course, brag photos of your Gew 98s welcomed.

1916 Gewehr 98 Rifle (Mfg by Spandau)http://www.milsurps.com/content.php?r=219-1916-Gewehr-98-Rifle-(Mfg-by-Spandau) in the Germany - Knowledge Libraryhttp://www.milsurps.com/content.php?r=123-germany


(Click PIC to Enlarge)


Here's a very rare accessory add-on that was issued for Gewehr 98 rifles between 1914-18. The obvious purpose of the "Action Mud Cover" was to prevent mud from entering the action and breech area, yet be quickly swung out of the way so the soldier could fire his rifle with it still mounted. Most of these were lost during the war or during the last 90 years, therefore they are exceptionally rare, hard to find and of course expensive.

(Click PIC to Enlarge)

Regards,
Badger
 
Thank you Nabs...

Very informative and illustrative, and some beautiful and fascinating rifles there. Thanks for the investment of time to help make me, and I'm sure others, smarter about these rifles.

I'd back up your request for this to become a sticky.



I hope this has been an informative post. Let me know if you have an questions or anything you wish to point out.

I would also like to humbly request a sticky for this thread so that it can be easily referenced in the future.
 
Sticky is a great idea with all the information, it would also make for a nice archives since the G. 98 comes up often enough on the forum.

I havea yugo capture 98b, quite a love. The extractor is broken but functional, smoothest action on the bolt of all my rifles.
 

Thank you sir, I look forward to other fellow collectors enjoying and utilizing the information shared in this thread.

I encourage other collectors with unique markings, variations...etc to come forth and post so that we may keep the knowledge base growing and hopefully tabulate a reliable database of Imperial German rifle/carbine information.
 
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