So I've got the bug to do a wildcat that as far as I can tell has never been done before. I know I need to get a custom reamer and custom forming dies, but what I need to find out is what the average time frame and cost of such an endevour? And what problems should I be expecting to arise? Hopefully someone on here has done this before and can give some advice. Thanks.
Thinking about doing a one off wildcat...how?
- Thread starter cdn shooter
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I use JGS to make a custom reamer. Costs around $150, as I recall.
For the ammo, I find the Lee collet neck sizer will often work. failing that, RCBS will make a custom sizer based on 3 sample cases. That cost around $150.
JGS has a catalog of all their reamers. Many different reamers for each caliber. Also many wildcats. hard to imagine you want to make something that has not been done before.
if you phone JGS they can discuss your ideas with you and email you drawings of reamers they already have.
Some of my better hunting rifles are for sale:
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/foru...my-nicer-hunting-rifles&p=8289001#post8289001
For the ammo, I find the Lee collet neck sizer will often work. failing that, RCBS will make a custom sizer based on 3 sample cases. That cost around $150.
JGS has a catalog of all their reamers. Many different reamers for each caliber. Also many wildcats. hard to imagine you want to make something that has not been done before.
if you phone JGS they can discuss your ideas with you and email you drawings of reamers they already have.
Some of my better hunting rifles are for sale:
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/foru...my-nicer-hunting-rifles&p=8289001#post8289001
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It would use the 7 saum case with the shoulder pushed back .2 ish and the neck would be 2x caliber long. shoulders at 35'
Why the 7 SAUM? Have you checked recently for available brass?
The 7 WSM might survive but you could always use 270 or 300 WSM as a source . . . it appears they will survive.
What do you anticipate as the advantages. Less powder, less velocity but with no guarantees.
If "guntech" does not respond, you should run your plans through him.
Otherwise, it might be trying to invent a new way of driving on a flat tire.
Jon Sundra's comments in the latest Nosler book calls the SAUM the worst commercial venture in modern history and after 6 years, Remington was no longer chambering for their inventions.
Otherwise, how can I help you?
The 7 WSM might survive but you could always use 270 or 300 WSM as a source . . . it appears they will survive.
What do you anticipate as the advantages. Less powder, less velocity but with no guarantees.
If "guntech" does not respond, you should run your plans through him.
Otherwise, it might be trying to invent a new way of driving on a flat tire.
Jon Sundra's comments in the latest Nosler book calls the SAUM the worst commercial venture in modern history and after 6 years, Remington was no longer chambering for their inventions.
Otherwise, how can I help you?
The point of it would be to shrink the volume to increase barrel life, the long neck to seat 180's fully above the case shoulder. The 7 saum is the closest to what I want to end up with but I think any of the wsm's would make brass for it, just more effort involved.
rnbra-shooter
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Costs for a wildcat:
- a reamer
- it is nice if you are able to full-length size your fired brass but not essential. Depending on your case design you might be able to use a sizing die for a standard calibre; if not, you can get a custom die made for you but it is expensive
- at the very least you need to be able to neck-size your rounds. Oftentimes you can can get away with using a standard die from a suitably chosen caliber. For yours, you could take a factory 7SAUM die and either use it as-is (in which case it wouldn't size the last 0.2" of your neck but that could be OK), or you could grind off the base of a 7SAUM die so you can size most or all of the neck.
- for seating you can usually find a die from a standard calibre that will do a good job for you.
So it's possibly as cheap as just a reamer, or potentially a lot more if you need/want one or more custom dies made for it.
- a reamer
- it is nice if you are able to full-length size your fired brass but not essential. Depending on your case design you might be able to use a sizing die for a standard calibre; if not, you can get a custom die made for you but it is expensive
- at the very least you need to be able to neck-size your rounds. Oftentimes you can can get away with using a standard die from a suitably chosen caliber. For yours, you could take a factory 7SAUM die and either use it as-is (in which case it wouldn't size the last 0.2" of your neck but that could be OK), or you could grind off the base of a 7SAUM die so you can size most or all of the neck.
- for seating you can usually find a die from a standard calibre that will do a good job for you.
So it's possibly as cheap as just a reamer, or potentially a lot more if you need/want one or more custom dies made for it.
Really! What's it called?
How fast do you want to chuck your .284 180gr bullet?
I think if I could get 2600 ish out of 28-30" tube I'd be happy.
Heck, almost any of the 7mm cartridges will do that. If you absolutely must have your wildcat, go do it any have fun, but you can probably just get a regular 7SAUM to do that, even with the bullet intruding into the case. 
LOL, why yes as a mater of fact I have some very sleek Vld .296 bullets, I'm making them for Macs gunworks in WY
not my idea. but since I'm making the bullets might as well build a rifle, just waiting for the bbl, chamber is a 7rem.
should be weeks away now.
not my idea. but since I'm making the bullets might as well build a rifle, just waiting for the bbl, chamber is a 7rem.
should be weeks away now.
I hope you're making a single shot 'cause that will be one SOB to make feed 100% reliably. If you are bent on this journey into the black hole of wildcatting for no particular gain, try Pacific Tool & Die for a reamer. The last 2 reamers I got from JGS had serious problems and the last one left me 1/2 way through a chambering job unable to complete it, with a brand new, first cut reamer. I will never buy another JGS reamer!!!
Some advice from an old wildcatter with several dozen designs to his credit............you play in the land of massive amounts of wasted money with no chance to recoup any, there is nothing you can think of, or do that has not already been done. Anything you may build or have built for you, will be unsaleable and worth the value of the action it's screwed onto. If you are not doing the work yourself the vast amount of wasted money just tripled. IF you do happen to come up with some fantastic new and innovative combo, someone else will claim it. Some wildcats are built to make use of gobs of available brass and some for greater velocity in a given caliber size and even others to use a case which is common and cheap and a given bullet which is also common and cheap. I can see no advantage , in your case, using a very obscure and virtually obsolete cartridge and then running the shoulder back 200 thou, to create a 7-08. Have you tried pushing back the 35 deg shoulder on the SAUM, it is not an easy thing to do and you will lose 50% plus, of your brass to collapsed cases and shoulders. To form these cases, you will have to make up a set of forming dies which will move the shoulder at the body back the 200 thou first, creating about a 15 deg shoulder THEN AND ONLY THEN you can work the neck junction back until you have your 35 deg shoulder. You will still lose some cases in the final step to collapsing shoulders. Now you have some formed cases, or do you? What you do have is some formed cases with a dual diameter neck, 1/2 your neck is the correct thickness and the lower half much, much thicker. These cases are not usable like this and must be inside neck reamed before you can seat a bullet and chamber a round to fire form to its final dimension, oh ya and they will also end up probably 40-50 thou short of original length. Now you can fireform, resize and trim them all to a uniform length and you're ready to start load development..........wrong......now you have to outside neck turn them all to reduce the imperfections and uneven brass neck thicknesses you created by inside neck reaming and then it would be a VERY good idea to anneal the necks and shoulders at this point so you get more than 2-3 loads before necks start splitting.
So you are willing to go to the expense and time investment to get to this point...........you have 50 or so cases made up and are ready to start load development.......what is your goal? A load that was easily doable with the 7 SAUM, 7-08, 7X57 or 7 WSM using roughly the same amount of powder...............WHY is the big question you have to ask yourself.
If you intend to start with an original 7SAUM are you sure the rate of twist will handle the 180 gn 7mm at these reduced velocities? Have you researched what rate of twist you will need for this cartridge, bullet and velocity combo? I just pulled a barrel after 40 rounds from brand new because I went with too fast a twist in a wildcat, it was a 300 dollar stainless steel Bevan King and I did the work myself, anyway off she comes and on goes another 350 dollar stainless barrel due to error in calculating rate of twist. It is impressive to watch a 90 gn 22 cal bullet turn into gray mist 30 mtrs out though!!
This dissertation is not meant to discourage you as much as it is to inform you of the pitfalls and unforeseen expenses involved in wildcatting. I've been there many times and I'm still throwing away money doing it, but I have gained a wealth of experience and knowledge in case design, what works and what doesn't, how expectations are seldom achieved and how there is no free lunch in external ballistics. What you gain somewhere you will pay for elsewhere, velocity gains = reduced barrel life..........more muzzle energy = more recoil = more ruined wood stocks.
I will leave you with this thought........there is no need in the hunting or target shooting world out there, for any more cartridges or calibers. Any purpose that a firearm could be used for, there is a suitable cartridge for it. HOWEVER if you just want to have fun and waste a lot of money and gain experience and knowledge, fly at 'er. There is a great deal of satisfaction taking game with a rifle/cartridge combo you designed and possibly no one else has ever used on game before. I hunted several species in Texas with a 7mm based on an 8X68 case improved to 30 deg shoulder. I'm fairly certain, given the difficulty of obtaining brass that no one else has done exactly this before and taken game with it, so............it was worth it to me.
Douglas
Some advice from an old wildcatter with several dozen designs to his credit............you play in the land of massive amounts of wasted money with no chance to recoup any, there is nothing you can think of, or do that has not already been done. Anything you may build or have built for you, will be unsaleable and worth the value of the action it's screwed onto. If you are not doing the work yourself the vast amount of wasted money just tripled. IF you do happen to come up with some fantastic new and innovative combo, someone else will claim it. Some wildcats are built to make use of gobs of available brass and some for greater velocity in a given caliber size and even others to use a case which is common and cheap and a given bullet which is also common and cheap. I can see no advantage , in your case, using a very obscure and virtually obsolete cartridge and then running the shoulder back 200 thou, to create a 7-08. Have you tried pushing back the 35 deg shoulder on the SAUM, it is not an easy thing to do and you will lose 50% plus, of your brass to collapsed cases and shoulders. To form these cases, you will have to make up a set of forming dies which will move the shoulder at the body back the 200 thou first, creating about a 15 deg shoulder THEN AND ONLY THEN you can work the neck junction back until you have your 35 deg shoulder. You will still lose some cases in the final step to collapsing shoulders. Now you have some formed cases, or do you? What you do have is some formed cases with a dual diameter neck, 1/2 your neck is the correct thickness and the lower half much, much thicker. These cases are not usable like this and must be inside neck reamed before you can seat a bullet and chamber a round to fire form to its final dimension, oh ya and they will also end up probably 40-50 thou short of original length. Now you can fireform, resize and trim them all to a uniform length and you're ready to start load development..........wrong......now you have to outside neck turn them all to reduce the imperfections and uneven brass neck thicknesses you created by inside neck reaming and then it would be a VERY good idea to anneal the necks and shoulders at this point so you get more than 2-3 loads before necks start splitting.
So you are willing to go to the expense and time investment to get to this point...........you have 50 or so cases made up and are ready to start load development.......what is your goal? A load that was easily doable with the 7 SAUM, 7-08, 7X57 or 7 WSM using roughly the same amount of powder...............WHY is the big question you have to ask yourself.
If you intend to start with an original 7SAUM are you sure the rate of twist will handle the 180 gn 7mm at these reduced velocities? Have you researched what rate of twist you will need for this cartridge, bullet and velocity combo? I just pulled a barrel after 40 rounds from brand new because I went with too fast a twist in a wildcat, it was a 300 dollar stainless steel Bevan King and I did the work myself, anyway off she comes and on goes another 350 dollar stainless barrel due to error in calculating rate of twist. It is impressive to watch a 90 gn 22 cal bullet turn into gray mist 30 mtrs out though!!
This dissertation is not meant to discourage you as much as it is to inform you of the pitfalls and unforeseen expenses involved in wildcatting. I've been there many times and I'm still throwing away money doing it, but I have gained a wealth of experience and knowledge in case design, what works and what doesn't, how expectations are seldom achieved and how there is no free lunch in external ballistics. What you gain somewhere you will pay for elsewhere, velocity gains = reduced barrel life..........more muzzle energy = more recoil = more ruined wood stocks.
I will leave you with this thought........there is no need in the hunting or target shooting world out there, for any more cartridges or calibers. Any purpose that a firearm could be used for, there is a suitable cartridge for it. HOWEVER if you just want to have fun and waste a lot of money and gain experience and knowledge, fly at 'er. There is a great deal of satisfaction taking game with a rifle/cartridge combo you designed and possibly no one else has ever used on game before. I hunted several species in Texas with a 7mm based on an 8X68 case improved to 30 deg shoulder. I'm fairly certain, given the difficulty of obtaining brass that no one else has done exactly this before and taken game with it, so............it was worth it to me.
Douglas
c-fbmi, thanks for the insight, It's really good to hear the truth from people who have been there done that. This design that I'm chasing is all about internal ballistics, I realize that there are many other choices that I could use to achieve what this wildcat would do in the external ballistic department, I won't argue that. I do however believe that there are still gains to be made in improving powder burn consistency aka accuracy, and barrel life. There's some interesting research going on on this subject and I think that designs like this will gain popularity over the next few years, or not, who knows.
If you dont mind I would like to pick your brain for more wisdom. What case would you say would make the transition to what I want the easiest? My only real needs are, 2x caliber neck length, .284 projectile, short fat case in the 55-65gr volume range. I just thought saum because it is closest to the finish product, but with comments on brass I'm leaning towards WSM although I would have to push the shoulders back further. Would the .270 version work better ie. less brass buildup. Honestly if I could have anything I wanted I would tack on .28 to the neck of a 7WSM and be done, not many ways of doing that though from what I can tell.
If you dont mind I would like to pick your brain for more wisdom. What case would you say would make the transition to what I want the easiest? My only real needs are, 2x caliber neck length, .284 projectile, short fat case in the 55-65gr volume range. I just thought saum because it is closest to the finish product, but with comments on brass I'm leaning towards WSM although I would have to push the shoulders back further. Would the .270 version work better ie. less brass buildup. Honestly if I could have anything I wanted I would tack on .28 to the neck of a 7WSM and be done, not many ways of doing that though from what I can tell.
You are looking to build a cartridge with neck dimensions I have been searching for. I wanted a .308 cal with a long neck to accommodate longer bullets without seating into the case. I see a definite advantage to having a longer neck for two reasons, to keep runout to a minimum, and to keep the bullet out of the casing.
I wish you luck with new toy!!
I wish you luck with new toy!!
What are you wanting to achieve, what is your goal and expectations of this wildcat project? If you just want a long necked 7 WSM then buy 7mm Dakota brass from Dakota and have at er. The biggest problem is the very fat case and sharp shoulder, they are a real SOB to move the shoulder back on without collapse. You can shove an '06 shoulder all the way to the web without issue or grief, but not a 30 or 35 deg one in 7mm and near 500 thou body dia, it just pushes inside and collapses. I would do this in 4 or 5 stages, I would move the shoulder back at about 45 cal to where I wanted it , then work it back with about a 40 caliber, then a 35cal then a 30 cal then a full length size in the 7mm die. This does work if you use lots of lube and are real touchy, feely with the ram. Resistance decreases instantly when the case starts to collapse. My advice is to move the shoulder back further with the larger diameter dies than required and use your last 30 cal step to head space, this will reduce the chances of case collapse with the smaller dia dies. The case will fireform just fine and the shoulder will move out where it should be. There is no way around the inside neck ream, fireform, size, trim, outside neck turn and anneal processes, sorry.
You know, what you are asking to be done with the brass case can be done with the chamber just as easily or actually even easier, have a reamer made to match specs with a long throat at exactly .2839 at any length you desire. If you only allow 2 thou case neck expansion and the leade measures .2839 for 250 thou you have the same effect just shorter necked brass...........Falling asleep TBC.
Douglas
You know, what you are asking to be done with the brass case can be done with the chamber just as easily or actually even easier, have a reamer made to match specs with a long throat at exactly .2839 at any length you desire. If you only allow 2 thou case neck expansion and the leade measures .2839 for 250 thou you have the same effect just shorter necked brass...........Falling asleep TBC.
Douglas
