This is how bad the finish is on Remington 870s

F22_RaptoR said:
I mean, you literally just said in your post that the bluing takes a certain amount of time to properly complete. "Thin" isn't really the best description but most people will understand it. It chemically hardens and oxidizes the outermost layer of steel to make it "inert" to corrosion, so if that isn't done for long enough (Remington cheaping out as it takes more production time) or if they don't neutralize it properly; there will be issues. It's as simple as that. Every process has to be done correctly to get correct results, and VERY obviously remington is NOT doing things to ISO9001 specifications, which is partly why they went right into the toilet and died.
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If they did not leave the parts in the tanks long enough, they would not be black. The black finish is itself a type of "rust", in this case nitric salt oxidation that is only microns thick. If it is black, it was done correctly. If it's purple or brown, it was not. Brown would mean the process was done wrong and regular red rust is on the surface. Purple is either it was not in the bath long enough, or the nickel content in the steel was too high (I'm looking at you 1970's Rugers!!!).

Blueing "protects" a metal surface from rust by being already rusted, depriving the underlying metal from oxygen in moist environments (up to a point). Oil significantly improves the durability of these finishes. The surface texture options (from smooth to sandblasted) have tradeoffs - smooth finishes "shed" moisture, while rough ones retain oil. Over a longer period, oil retention is usually a superior choice to moisture shedding - assuming the operator regularly oils the gun, that is.

Also, bluing does not harden a surface at all. It's a cosmetic and protective finish only, it does not change surface hardness by any appreciable amount.

ISO9001, by the way, is not a bluing specification. The ISO 9000 series specs are about process repeatability - in other words, they do the process the same way every time. I have no idea if the new Remarms company is ISO certified or not, but the old Illion plant was.

Lastly, Remington "died" because they were owned by an investment company for several years (Cerberus) that knew NOTHING about running a gun manufacturer and was more interested in raiding the company for its best assets and then spinning off the carcass. Everything after that has been Remington's attempts to recover from that horrendous management experience.

If you look at a Wingmaster made right before the most recent bankruptcy, it's still a beautifully finished firearm that is well made and up to most reasonable people's standards. The reality, however, is that consumers wanted to pay about the same price for an Express as they would pay for a cheap Turkish aluminum bangstick and making a gun that cheaply involves plastic, MIM parts, less machining and fitting work, etc.
 
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Claven2 said:
If they did not leave the parts in the tanks long enough, they would not be black. The black finish is itself a type of "rust", in this case nitric salt oxidation that is only microns thick. If it is black, it was done correctly. If it's purple or brown, it was not. Brown would mean the process was done wrong and regular red rust is on the surface. Purple is either it was not in the bath long enough, or the nickel content in the steel was too high (I'm looking at you 1970's Rugers!!!).

Blueing "protects" a metal surface from rust by being already rusted, depriving the underlying metal from oxygen in moist environments (up to a point). Oil significantly improves the durability of these finishes. The surface texture options (from smooth to sandblasted) have tradeoffs - smooth finishes "shed" moisture, while rough ones retain oil. Over a longer period, oil retention is usually a superior choice to moisture shedding - assuming the operator regularly oils the gun, that is.

Also, bluing does not harden a surface at all. It's a cosmetic and protective finish only, it does not change surface hardness by any appreciable amount.

ISO9001, by the way, is not a bluing specification. The ISO 9000 series specs are about process repeatability - in other words, they do the process the same way every time. I have no idea if the new Remarms company is ISO certified or not, but the old Illion plant was.

Lastly, Remington "died" because they were owned by an investment company for several years (Cerberus) that knew NOTHING about running a gun manufacturer and was more interested in raiding the company for its best assets and then spinning off the carcass. Everything after that has been Remington's attempts to recover from that horrendous management experience.

If you look at a Wingmaster made right before the most recent bankruptcy, it's still a beautifully finished firearm that is well made and up to most reasonable people's standards. The reality, however, is that consumers wanted to pay about the same price for an Express as they would pay for a cheap Turkish aluminum bangstick and making a gun that cheaply involves plastic, MIM parts, less machining and fitting work, etc.
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You're awfully attached to the bluing thing, when I said they either screwed up the bluing OR the neutralizing/cleaning after. I don't know and I honestly don't care how the process works other than knowing the end result. Guns don't just rust for no reason, especially when the air has low humidity (mid alberta can be a desert a lot of the time). So maybe they figured out how to properly blue a gun, then they DEFINITELY did not properly clean it after. You soak steel in any kind of acid and let it sit for a while, it's gonna rust. Or maybe it was contaminated blasting media as the Express Tactical's had a blasted/blued finish rather than Parkerized or satin/blued finish.

I have worked in ISO9001 facilities before, i know what it is. Again, they were obviously not following THEIR procedures. Otherwise entire batches wouldn't have come into the store rusty.

Lastly, Remington put themselves into a position to be bought out by a financial investment company. Same as HK (one of my favorite gun manufacturers, and I wasn't any nicer about what HK was going through). But HK/Sig realized their problems and pulled through. Cerberus dumped Remington because they weren't a financially viable asset anymore. Management/investment companies don't just buy companies and destroy them, they buy companies to make money.

But you feel free to keep shilling Remington, I'm done with you :)
 
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Claven2 said:
That is your perspective. When I've used military rifles in the field (C7, C8 variants for testing and eval purposes), the exteriors have to be well oiled on a regular basis or they rust like your photos.
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After 5 days sitting in the field with my C7, I had about 1% of the rust this did after 6 hours

No worries, i'll be getting black box customs to cerakote this. Not something I want to have to baby sit in the wilderness
 
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I remember going to a gun show in the spring in Saskatchewan where we transported most of our guns (new) in the original boxes in the back of my pick up truck (with canopy). After an 8 hour trip with a over night parking we arrived at the show and opened the boxes to display the guns and found rust similar to what was depicted on many guns including Remington ,Browning and Tikka. I couldn't believe the rust occurred in such a short time frame in a relatively dry truck bed. I was able to clean the rust off all the guns with M-Pro Seven followed by G96. We removed stocks at the show ,disassembled the actions and with the use of Bore Snakes the guns came out good as new inside and out. Phil.
 
P of PDent said:
I remember going to a gun show in the spring in Saskatchewan where we transported most of our guns (new) in the original boxes in the back of my pick up truck (with canopy). After an 8 hour trip with a over night parking we arrived at the show and opened the boxes to display the guns and found rust similar to what was depicted on many guns including Remington ,Browning and Tikka. I couldn't believe the rust occurred in such a short time frame in a relatively dry truck bed. I was able to clean the rust off all the guns with M-Pro Seven followed by G96. We removed stocks at the show ,disassembled the actions and with the use of Bore Snakes the guns came out good as new inside and out. Phil.
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Wow! Thanks for that - Sounds wild, but I'm sure it can happen under the right (wrong) conditions.

I'm sure most of us would prefer if it never happened, but as you say they cleaned right up so it's not really that big of a deal.
 
The best blueing job I personally seen hold up after five day moose hunt with virtually no care, maybe a wipe down end of day, was a Lee Enfield converted Churchill to sporter configuration.
The user cleaned it in day six and the blued surface was just as good as day one. And we had rain on day three.

I don't know what they did over there but that deep dark blueing was something else.
 
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