This year cariboo hunting... Rifle set for 600 metres...

Well, I think Caramel is on his game - he shoots a lot, has practised the long shots, and if he has the perfect opportunity, why not take it? Look on TV where those guys are shooting 700+ yds on elk sized animals - its not that hard to hit something that far if you and gun are tuned in -
Regardless, If he feels he can do it in the conditions presented to him, then go for it!
I think he is aware that the chances of a bad placed shot...and I am sure he wouldnt do it if he wasn't 100% confident that he could hit what he aims at.
His 600yd 7 inch groups instill confidence to me, much more than a lot of guys I see at the range that hit a 12" paper plate at 100 and call their rifle 'sighted in' and then go hunting, or those that use a 223 for deer, or hunt moose with SKS's... dont ya think???
and thats just my opinion!
 
It will all come down to a judgment call if the occasion doesnt happen this year, there will be other times, i wrote down all the # to reset to that position so, just a few shots to validate and it is good to go... JP.
 
tylerjwitty said:
my very point is that its impossible to clean up our act...
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While it is, in fact, impossible to completely "clean up our act", the fact that perfection cannot be achieved is a stupid argument for never trying. An ethical person will try to be ethical whenever it actually is possible. When it is actually easy to do the ethical thing, and one argues that, since it is sometimes impossible, we should just not worry about ethics, one is actually a bit pathological.

The challenges of long range shooting are fun. There is no need to face those challenges using living targets that will suffer when (not "if", but "when") the challenges prove to be too much for you at the time. Have your shooting fun on a range. Hunt close enough to minimize the suffering of other living things. As my grandfather always said, "When you have to, kill it; but don't just hurt things."
 
rral22 said:
There is no need to face those challenges using living targets that will suffer when (not "if", but "when") the challenges prove to be too much for you at the time. Have your shooting fun on a range. Hunt close enough to minimize the suffering of other living things. As my grandfather always said, "When you have to, kill it; but don't just hurt things."
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I can understand the challenge of long range shooting, I just can't get my head around shooting at Game at that range and calling it hunting. Unsportsmanlike IMO. Give the animal a sporting chance.
I've seen the videos of guys with a shooting bench and sandbags, popping game at ridiculous distances. Good shooting, damn poor hunting IMO.
 
Well, so far what I am getting from this thread is that if mother nature is a cruel system then, well why can't we do it also?

Let's all fire up the SKS's with FMJ ammo and lob a few at the long distance moose, well why not it may be cruel but that is natures way so be it!

As for the reference to 700+ yard elk kills on TV, do you believe everything you see on TV?The name Huskemama comes to mind on that one.That`s marketing so you buy the new scope and new rifle and new high BC bullets.Kinda the same as convincing people they need to newest and greatest camo pattern for moose and deer.

We have the CHOICE the make the ethical shot, that is what differs us from animals.It is instinct and natures way when an animal is consumed my predators or dies of starvation, we are ahead of that but not by much from what I have seen on this thread.

it is caramels choice, he is the only one who knows if he can make the shot and he is the only one who has to live with the actions of that.Misses do happen even at close range and yes it sucks when it happens and it is the hunter that have to live with the aftermath be it good or bad.But sayin nature is cruel and we can be too, well that is about a grade 3 justification IMO.
 
tylerjwitty said:
What is the purpose for training if it is never used ?
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That's just silly. (I'd say stupid, but that would be rude.)

What's the purpose of a fire extinguisher if you don't blast it off in the house once in a while? Same thing? Does the fact you have life insurance mean you should cut off a body part once in a while to collect? Just silly.

You train so you can do something. You learn to shoot at long range because it is a challenge not so you can take stupid chances that you will wound living things. If you actually shot at long range, you would know you CAN"T do it right all the time, especially under real life hunting conditions at a target that can easily move randomly in the time of flight for the bullet.

If you think the only reason you learn to shoot is so you can kill stuff, I feel sorry for you. You are missing most of what shooting is about.

If you feel that way, don't train. (See, it's a silly argument)
 
Kelly Timoffee said:
it is caramels choice, he is the only one who knows if he can make the shot and he is the only one who has to live with the actions of that.Misses do happen even at close range and yes it sucks when it happens and it is the hunter that have to live with the aftermath be it good or bad.But sayin nature is cruel and we can be too, well that is about a grade 3 justification IMO.
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No, the animal he shoots at may very well have to live with "the actions of that" after caramel makes a mistake about what he "knew" he could do. If it really was only caramel who dealt with the consequences, no one would have any argument. To ignore the fact there is a living animal on the other end of his shot that he admitted, in the beginning, that he might well miss, is to ignore all the real issues.
 
rral22 said:
That's just silly. (I'd say stupid, but that would be rude.)

What's the purpose of a fire extinguisher if you don't blast it off in the house once in a while? Same thing? Does the fact you have life insurance mean you should cut off a body part once in a while to collect? Just silly.

You train so you can do something. You learn to shoot at long range because it is a challenge not so you can take stupid chances that you will wound living things. If you actually shot at long range, you would know you CAN"T do it right all the time, especially under real life hunting conditions at a target that can easily move randomly in the time of flight for the bullet.

If you think the only reason you learn to shoot is so you can kill stuff, I feel sorry for you. You are missing most of what shooting is about.

If you feel that way, don't train. (See, it's a silly argument)
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no i would say your view is silly. if you have a fire extingusher in your house you should use it on fires to see what your dealing with.

a weight lifter trains to become strong to one day use it in there life.......

this thread is stupid and is annoying me every time i open this hunting and arms forum..

killing stuff is not the only reason but the main purpose behind me training to shoot.

Kelly , my point is every time we get into a car were killing stuff, every time we walk thro a field...

just because they are not big doesn't mean that they are not important. in fact they are probably more important than one cariboo.

its all a big circle of life and we will die also
 
no i would say your view is silly. if you have a fire extingusher in your house you should use it on fires to see what your dealing with.
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Right. You practice on an artificial target fire. You don't use it in your house unless you have to.

a weight lifter trains to become strong to one day use it in there life.......
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Use it for what? Trying to see if he is strong enough to kill someone with a heavy rock from far away? An absolutely ridiculous analogy.

this thread is stupid and is annoying me every time i open this hunting and arms forum..
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But you keep posting?

killing stuff is not the only reason but the main purpose behind me training to shoot.
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Too bad, as I already said. As was once said (not by me) "I don't hunt in order to kill things; I kill things in order to have hunted." But that likely won't make any sense to you.

You are right that all life depends on the death of lots of other lives. You are absolutely wrong if you argue that the fact that you can't live without killing other things means you should not care about killing other things, or about causing unnecessary suffering. The key word is "unnecessary". Don't do stuff you don't have to, if it may hurt something else. You already do enough unintentional damage; deliberately choosing to cause more is unethical. So when you're hunting, don't take shots that have a high risk of failure.

Sorry you hate this stupid thread.
 
But that isn't the issue at hand the issue here is as hunters we don't want to add fuel to the anti-hunting debate and as critical as it may sound deep down we are trying to constructively criticize caramel in our own way as we see it.We want a hassle free non-political acceptance of our hunting hobby/past time, saying that we kill something every time we walk though a field or step on a blade of grass isn't helping our cause at all it actually would be lovely fuel coming from a hunter to a non-hunter.Vegans kills carrots if that is the case, otters kill shell fish, birds kill worms, some humans kill brain cells, where do you want your argument to end.

We have the choice to drive more efficient cars or walk, we have the choice the walk on the sidewalk or the grass and we also have the choice to choose our shots to make a humane kill.

"Impossible to clean up our act" Do you want as just to run around shooting at whatever we see not caring about wounding it or what collateral damage there is?Because if it is impossible to clean up our act then we might as well just do that shouldn't we?

We have some of the greatest hunting in the world today and that is from progressing and learning and continuing game management(yes, this involves killing). We make improvements and changes to clean up out act every day.

Sounds like you want us to behave like animals, we are an intelligent civilization that is going to advance whether you like it or not.

You are right all living creatures die and some die for our survival, other creatures die as other creatures need to survive in nature as well, but we make choices.

Also, there are other forums on this site if this discussion is bothering you, are you going to continue to read?

tylerjwitty said:
no i would say your view is silly. if you have a fire extingusher in your house you should use it on fires to see what your dealing with.

a weight lifter trains to become strong to one day use it in there life.......

this thread is stupid and is annoying me every time i open this hunting and arms forum..

killing stuff is not the only reason but the main purpose behind me training to shoot.

Kelly , my point is every time we get into a car were killing stuff, every time we walk thro a field...

just because they are not big doesn't mean that they are not important. in fact they are probably more important than one cariboo.

its all a big circle of life and we will die also
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Of course there are other consequences , what I am getting at is that you or I don't directly have to deal with the results of another persons missed shot.We are arguing our morals and ethics and what we wouldn't do because we would have our conscience and different thoughts on the subject to deal with.

I don't oppose you at all that the animal could potentially suffer due to a persons choice, but it isn't our choice that will be the issue.In the end it is caramels choice to pull the trigger and his alone and the results of pulling the trigger also will weigh on him , positive outcome or not.

rral22 said:
No, the animal he shoots at may very well have to live with "the actions of that" after caramel makes a mistake about what he "knew" he could do. If it really was only caramel who dealt with the consequences, no one would have any argument. To ignore the fact there is a living animal on the other end of his shot that he admitted, in the beginning, that he might well miss, is to ignore all the real issues.
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Caremel ... as long as you are confident at shooting at 600, and you really know your balistics for wind adjustments, 600 is nothing. We took a blacktail today at 733 yards in a 16 mph cross wind. With a 7mm 180 berger with a G7 BC of 659 at 2750 fps, our wind adjustment was almost exsactly 6 minutes of angle windage which works out to 43.98 inches of adjustment today. The buck was shot from prone position and was dead before it hit the ground... Very ethical in my opinion. However, for exsample ... Wind at 1.5 miles per hour directly cross at 1000yards with this load is 13 inches of drift. In the 1.33 seconds it takes for that bullet to get there with a bit of a flinch ... you could have a real disater on your hands, I know your not shooting that far it just an exsample of what a small aount of wind can do. We have never wounded an animal and if were not comfortable with the conditions for the shooter. I dont care if we think its the biggest animal ever recorded of that spieces , were not taking it. Im sure you would not want to die for 4 hours or a whole night in the worst agony you ever imagined from a gutshot. Niether does your game. If you know what your doing in the right conditions 600 is nothing. we do it regularely. But if your unsure about anything pass on the shot and get closer. Sometimes you have to let dream trophys go and try another day. Its a part of hunting

Some other factors you will have to consider are all atmospheric conditions. Tempature , barometric presure and relative humidity play huge factors in long shots. Extreme changes in conditons will drastically change your bullets path. Your bullet will carry its velocity much farther than exspected in hot air and slow down much quicker in cold air, due to its density. Another factor that has to be considered is your powder ... Is it tempature sensitive ? Powders like Reloader when kept at tempatures cooler than when your gun was sighted in and chronographed will have slower muzzle velocities that exspected... as much as 200fps sometimes. Slower bullet = more wind drift and lower impact point than exspected. Extreme powders like Hodgsons wont be effected as much... if at all. All the math in the world wont help you if you dont know your muzzle velocity. Also when you shoot at diffrent inclines your range will have to be recalculated if you do not have an arc function in your rangefinder.

I would like to add 7 inch groups at 600 yards is not satisfactory accuracy for that distance of shot.... in my opinion i would be looking for 4 inch groups at the very most. Half minute of accuracy is what i would be looking for before i would take a shot at an animal at that distance.


Remember ... head winds and tail winds do not effect trajectory, make good decisions and happy hunting. I think long range hunting is a great challange and very rewarding. However this isnt something you can just "wing" there is a lot of data that needs to be put together to consistantly make these shots. Dont make your game pay because you want to feel good about making a 600 yard shot.
 
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two-dogs said:
Right you are, I can't do it and will not try!
Well there big guy, did you read the OP's original post clearly, I think not! Please go back and re-read it! He, himself sounds quite skepticle of himself being able to do it! Prolly a miss he states! And as another poster states, prolly a total miss is just as likely as to a wounded animal! I have a big heart for animals, humans, well not so much! I know you are a northern soul with true grit and have a tough job to do, but please have a heart for humain animal hunting, one shot, one clean quick kill! No fantacy shots allowed on animals!
Looking forward to your reply! So, when is the last time you enjoyed those Coney-chips in Sask? (Hanigans/Dog'n'Suds). I miss them so very dearly!
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In defense of JP, his English bites. Now, I don't know what kind of a hunter he is so I presume that he is ethical and won't take a marginal shot at long range. Truth. Is that 600 is a hellacious poke for most guys, myself included. My longest shots were just a hair over 400 (coincidentally on caribou) but 600 would be well outside my comfort zone. My point was that for the guys who put the time in and have the knowledge and ability, who are we to criticize? Kinda like me sending nasty emails to Usain Bolt because I can't run the 100 under 15 flat!

Come to think of it, who does that Bolt fellow think he is? Running all fast like. Slow down like the rest of us you show off!:D
 
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