Thoughts on a 408 cheytac
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I was recently studying the caliber out of interest. At 800y, has more energy than a 50 bmg, but about the same ammo cost. Expensive project, but pretty cool. Reloading supplies might be harder to find as the bullets aren't as common, but they can be sourced. My local range has a 338 Lapua Magnum energy limit, so I when I get around to getting a barrel burner magnum, it will be a 338 LM. Cool caliber though. Oh, and if you have the $$$, you can buy the .408 Cheytac M200 Intervention in Canada for the ultimate experience.
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408 was a consideration for me. So was a 50.
I currently have a 375 on order from Cadex.
Friend has a 408. He said if he did it again he’d go 375. Components are easier and a little cheaper to get. 375 has better ballistics, it seems. In the Cadex section I have a thread on barrel length for a 50. Some info in there.
I currently have a 375 on order from Cadex.
Friend has a 408. He said if he did it again he’d go 375. Components are easier and a little cheaper to get. 375 has better ballistics, it seems. In the Cadex section I have a thread on barrel length for a 50. Some info in there.
338, 375 or 50 Cheaper, easier and less of a headache for parts.
Unique and cool factor 408
I’ll let others chime in on the actuall m200 never shot one but carried a real weight clone and nothing says your gonna have a bad time then lugging it around unless its from the truck to the adjacent bench lol. But I’m only 5’9 and 150lbs my buddy at 6’4 280lbs didn’t mind it lol.
- Location
- calgary alberta
Can someone please explain to me how this "magical" caliber is able to totally defy physics?
I had this conversation with the Cheytac guys years ago at SHOT and they too came up dry.
How is it that a 400 ish (419 gr at the time) bullet with a B.C. of mid 800s (G1) traveling at about 2800 FPS can have more muzzle energy, or energy period than a 750 gr bullet with a B.C. of over 1.0 (G1) that is also traveling at 2800 FPS?
Can someone "splain" this all to me? I am old and have been shooting ELR for many decades and this simply does not jive with what I know. The Cheytac guys opted not to come up and school me at 2 miles as was proposed. Maybe they were selling rifles based on smoke and mirrors?
Neat little caliber but I am at a loss as to how it eclipses the 50 in any way.
- Location
- calgary alberta
As mentioned, I just don't understand the claims.
I shoot both 408 and 50 along with 338 Lapua Improved.
The 338 keeps up with the 408 just fine until just about the 1 mile mark, then the 408 has the advantage. The added 85 grains of bullet and slightly higher B.C. does help.
The 50 in my experience still has a distinct edge over the 408 at the 2 mile mark. That being said the last couple of years the guys who won King of 2 Miles were shooting 375 CT and 416 Barret, but I am not sure if they find the lesser recoil being the advantage than what the 50 delivers to the shoulder.
I now shoot strictly for fun, age is no-ones friend, so find that on days when I am not on my A game tend to wrap it up and go home. Having shot a 50 for so many years I don't find recoil an issue and certainly do find both the 408 and 338 to be very mild in comparison, so possibly that is the advantage?
For the Ko2M competition weight is now in the rules and the 50 will always weigh more than what a 408 can be built with.
- Location
- calgary alberta
Ok, I will play.
I feel kinda bad challenging Alberta Tactical Rifle (You have all my respect Rick for your experience and knowledge - My knowledge is limited in comparison! I bow my head to seniority, but still want to participate in this!).
3 ways to mansplain the claim from the 408 Cheytac. One way is goofy, one way is serious and one way is just reality. You decide which is which.
For reference, I refer to the following claim: "Beyond 400 yards, it has more kinetic energy than a 50 BMG". I took that claim from the very serious source here: (minute 4:09 of the Discovery Channel Cheytac M200 Intervention video) at https://youtu.be/xkfyx0Z-iJs?t=246
Way 1:
Today on how they do it. 408 Cheytac Energy! Everyone wants a 408 Cheytac in their home. First they take the 408 Cheytac bullet, and they smooth it out, with a bunch of Schleem. The Schleem is then repurposed for later batches. They take the 408 Cheytac bullet and push it through the Grumbo, where the Fleeb is rubbed against it. It is important that the Fleeb is rubbed, because the fleeb has all of the fleeb juice. Then a Schlommy shows up and he rubs it and spits on it. They cut the fleeb. They are several hizzards in the way. The blamphs rub against the chumbles. And the 408 Cheytac bullet and grumbo are shaved away. That leaves you with an amazing high kinetic energy 408 Cheytac.
Way 2:
Kinetic Energy is calculated as Ke=0.5 x M x V(squared)
Cheytac assumed a Ballistic coefficient of 0.949 for their 408 Cheytac (419 grains, 3000 ft/s);
They assumed a BC of 0.611 for the 50BMG (750 grains, 2978 ft/s). I am sure it's possible to provide other numbers with premium 50BMG bullets and fudge the comparison in anyone's favour.
They are referring to this chart: https://cheytac.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/CheyTacvs50cal_VelocityDistance-Infographic_rv.jpg
According to JBM Ballistics Calculator http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj_simp-5.1.cgi, at 400 yards:
408 Cheytac velocity is 2606.3 ft/s, energy is 15 334.4 Joules
50 BMG velocity is 2586.2 ft/s, energy is 15 098.8 Joules
Way 3:
408 Cheytac is more expensive, therefore must be better.
There you go. Just to be clear, I am a personal big fan of 50BMG and I appreciate the argument of displacement. A lighter bullet which keeps more velocity because of a lighter BC will keep more Kinetic Energy because the velocity component is squared. I understand there are many other factors involved in a successful long distance shot, for example a heavier bullet will be more resistant to wind pressure, etc.
I feel kinda bad challenging Alberta Tactical Rifle (You have all my respect Rick for your experience and knowledge - My knowledge is limited in comparison! I bow my head to seniority, but still want to participate in this!).
3 ways to mansplain the claim from the 408 Cheytac. One way is goofy, one way is serious and one way is just reality. You decide which is which.
For reference, I refer to the following claim: "Beyond 400 yards, it has more kinetic energy than a 50 BMG". I took that claim from the very serious source here: (minute 4:09 of the Discovery Channel Cheytac M200 Intervention video) at https://youtu.be/xkfyx0Z-iJs?t=246
Way 1:
Today on how they do it. 408 Cheytac Energy! Everyone wants a 408 Cheytac in their home. First they take the 408 Cheytac bullet, and they smooth it out, with a bunch of Schleem. The Schleem is then repurposed for later batches. They take the 408 Cheytac bullet and push it through the Grumbo, where the Fleeb is rubbed against it. It is important that the Fleeb is rubbed, because the fleeb has all of the fleeb juice. Then a Schlommy shows up and he rubs it and spits on it. They cut the fleeb. They are several hizzards in the way. The blamphs rub against the chumbles. And the 408 Cheytac bullet and grumbo are shaved away. That leaves you with an amazing high kinetic energy 408 Cheytac.
Way 2:
Kinetic Energy is calculated as Ke=0.5 x M x V(squared)
Cheytac assumed a Ballistic coefficient of 0.949 for their 408 Cheytac (419 grains, 3000 ft/s);
They assumed a BC of 0.611 for the 50BMG (750 grains, 2978 ft/s). I am sure it's possible to provide other numbers with premium 50BMG bullets and fudge the comparison in anyone's favour.
They are referring to this chart: https://cheytac.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/CheyTacvs50cal_VelocityDistance-Infographic_rv.jpg
According to JBM Ballistics Calculator http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj_simp-5.1.cgi, at 400 yards:
408 Cheytac velocity is 2606.3 ft/s, energy is 15 334.4 Joules
50 BMG velocity is 2586.2 ft/s, energy is 15 098.8 Joules
Way 3:
408 Cheytac is more expensive, therefore must be better.
There you go. Just to be clear, I am a personal big fan of 50BMG and I appreciate the argument of displacement. A lighter bullet which keeps more velocity because of a lighter BC will keep more Kinetic Energy because the velocity component is squared. I understand there are many other factors involved in a successful long distance shot, for example a heavier bullet will be more resistant to wind pressure, etc.
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first thing is to use the G7 bullet model as it's going to be more accurate. But in my knowledge of fluid mechanics, frontal area of a body is directly proporitional to drag. The length of a body is also important for boundary layer formation. I strongly believe that there is an optimal length to diameter ratio where a bullet of certain mass will achieve the best aerodynamic performance. I would prosume that this is the case with the 408 cheytac bullet. Now that being said, I haven't looked into and made the comparison. Perhaps I should, if I do, I'll send you a PM ATR.
- Location
- calgary alberta
I don't feel at all challenged and thank you for the kind words. I may be old but still willing to learn and frankly the "new" math totally baffles me.
Using real world numbers derived partly by chronographing actual best shooting ammo in real world conditions but all on the same day within as short a time frame as possible, the bullet manufacturers posted B.C. and Exbal program these are the numbers my personal rifles delivered.
338 LAI 300 gr SMK bullet, velocity 3000 FPS plus or minus 7 FPS in 10 shot string.
Muzzle 3000 FPS 5994 FTLBs energy
100 yards 2906 FPS 5869 FTLBs energy
1000 yards 1912 FPS 2371 FTLBs energy
408 Cheytac 419 gr LRB bullet velocity 2802 FPS plus or minus 9 FPS in 10 shot string.
Muzzle 2802 FPS 7293 FTLBs energy
100 yards 2701FPS 6791 FTLBs energy
1000 yards 1912 FPS 3400 FTLBs energy
50 BMG 750 gr Amax bullet velocity 2803 FPS plus or minus 11 FPS in 10 shot string.
Muzzle 2803 FPS 13054 FTLBs energy
100 yards 2711 FPS 12849 FTLBs energy
1000 yards 1995 FPS 6630 FTLBs energy
You are correct, numbers can be manipulated to help sell anything. I posed this question the the Cheytac guys at SHOT show. Why would you opt to compare custom rifle and ammo with M2 machinegun and surplus machinegun ammo other than to make your lemon look like a grapefruit?
Surplus Ball ammo is not known for extreme accuracy or consistency.
My take away was that they were trying to baffle us with the male bovine excrement.
Way 3 seems to be the correct answer.
