Thoughts on a S & W triple lock in 455
- Thread starter tokguy
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If you look at the two pics I posted (one is 44 spl and the other 455 w/ lanyard ring, but fabricated in the 44 spl series as opposed to the initial 5000 brit contract) you should note that there is no slot in the recoil shiel for a protruding cylinder pin to get pushed forward so it can pop into appropriate hole when fully closed like on all other smiths of this size made after the TL.
The reason the shroud is large on these is to hold a spring that forces the pin (normally forward) back and to house an additional pin that locates into the case hardened bit on the yoke (the third lock).
The ejector also has a knob that would need the 1950 (post war) barrel to be relieved to close.
I'd say that the barrel threads will fit, but the thing wouldn't be securely locked up. I would advise against trying, but recommend grabbing a barrel 'cause you never no when a nice N frame comes along that needs a bit of refreshing... ...I have one of the 1950 barrels, but for proper application.
The reason the shroud is large on these is to hold a spring that forces the pin (normally forward) back and to house an additional pin that locates into the case hardened bit on the yoke (the third lock).
The ejector also has a knob that would need the 1950 (post war) barrel to be relieved to close.
I'd say that the barrel threads will fit, but the thing wouldn't be securely locked up. I would advise against trying, but recommend grabbing a barrel 'cause you never no when a nice N frame comes along that needs a bit of refreshing... ...I have one of the 1950 barrels, but for proper application.
I think I'll try the 455 as is first.
Keith tells an anecdote about the TL455 " We had a Canadian friend who went over with the Canadian Forces & during one engagement was captured by three German soldiers in the night. They were conducting him back to their lines and, during some heavy shelling, all four took refuge in a shell hole. He had an old .455 TL S & W inside his tunic, in a makeshift shoulder holster that the 3 Germans had missed when they searched him in the dark. Each time a flare shell went up he watched his captors, got them perfectly located, and then as the sky lighted again, he jerked the old TL and killed all three before they could bring a rifle to bear on him, shooting fast & double action from his cramped position in the mud. He made his way to the Canadian lines where he was gladly accepted on challenging the sentries"
...and should have never had to buy another drink, for the rest of his life.
The end.
But I think I'll just settle for a fresh bluing and a little extra d*cking around in .455. Got to show a little pride in country you know. Thanks all
Keith tells an anecdote about the TL455 " We had a Canadian friend who went over with the Canadian Forces & during one engagement was captured by three German soldiers in the night. They were conducting him back to their lines and, during some heavy shelling, all four took refuge in a shell hole. He had an old .455 TL S & W inside his tunic, in a makeshift shoulder holster that the 3 Germans had missed when they searched him in the dark. Each time a flare shell went up he watched his captors, got them perfectly located, and then as the sky lighted again, he jerked the old TL and killed all three before they could bring a rifle to bear on him, shooting fast & double action from his cramped position in the mud. He made his way to the Canadian lines where he was gladly accepted on challenging the sentries"
...and should have never had to buy another drink, for the rest of his life.
The end.
But I think I'll just settle for a fresh bluing and a little extra d*cking around in .455. Got to show a little pride in country you know. Thanks all
Trust me on this, they work just fine. If you have a TL with a worn out bore, as many of them have, one of those barrels is the perfect solution. Any gunsmith that knows how to fit a barrel onto a revolver can do the job. The barrel shank threads are identical.
There is a lot of .455 brass around if you are patient. In addition to the previously mentioned turned down .45LC cases, I have been able to locate newly made Starline and Hornady MkII brass (the Webley size) as well as a box of 1F balloon head Dominion .455 Colt brass over the past few yrs. The Fiocchi .455 Webley (short) brass is also available after you fire the factory loads. The Fiocchi brass takes a small primer. The others all use a large primer.
I don't know about the S&W cylinders, but my Colt New Service will use the longer .455 Colt brass in addition to the shorter .455 Webley brass.
While the .455 ballistics may appear a little sedate in comparison to the .45 LC, I wouldn't volunteer to stand in front of one. The .455 was the official Brit/Cdn Army revolver ctg for a long time and it was also used by the RNWMP/RCMP in the Colt New Service. The 265gr conical base bullet was the final evolution of the old British service ctgs that were designed to reliably knock down the "fuzzy-wuzzies" at close range if they penetrated the skirmish line.
I don't know about the S&W cylinders, but my Colt New Service will use the longer .455 Colt brass in addition to the shorter .455 Webley brass.
While the .455 ballistics may appear a little sedate in comparison to the .45 LC, I wouldn't volunteer to stand in front of one. The .455 was the official Brit/Cdn Army revolver ctg for a long time and it was also used by the RNWMP/RCMP in the Colt New Service. The 265gr conical base bullet was the final evolution of the old British service ctgs that were designed to reliably knock down the "fuzzy-wuzzies" at close range if they penetrated the skirmish line.
Should I bid on this 455 Triple lock? Bids start at $720, nobody has put in a bid yet! here is the description and some pictures -
"6 1/2" pinned barrel with an excellent bore. This triple lock revolver retains about 92% of its original factory finish. The finish is flaking on the grip frame and the muzzle from handling, and there are some scattered light handling blemishes and scratches present. The hammer and trigger retain vivid case-hardened colors with the sides of the trigger starting to thin and exhibiting light operation marks. The diamond centered, checkered walnut grips feature gold Smith & Wesson medallions and are in near excellent condition overall with light handling wear; they are hand numbered to the gun in pencil. There are matching serial numbers on all the appropriate parts except the rear of the cylinder. The number was removed when the cylinder was faced off to accommodate the thicker rim of the 45 Auto Rim cartridge. The barrel and frame are marked with British view and proof marks and both locations are stamped "Not English Make". The cylinder has a British proof on each chamber. The top left frame is marked with the government ownership broad arrow / (His Majesty's crown) / A2 (inspectors mark) / E (Enfield). The half moon front sight has been cut to a smooth ramp configuration."
"6 1/2" pinned barrel with an excellent bore. This triple lock revolver retains about 92% of its original factory finish. The finish is flaking on the grip frame and the muzzle from handling, and there are some scattered light handling blemishes and scratches present. The hammer and trigger retain vivid case-hardened colors with the sides of the trigger starting to thin and exhibiting light operation marks. The diamond centered, checkered walnut grips feature gold Smith & Wesson medallions and are in near excellent condition overall with light handling wear; they are hand numbered to the gun in pencil. There are matching serial numbers on all the appropriate parts except the rear of the cylinder. The number was removed when the cylinder was faced off to accommodate the thicker rim of the 45 Auto Rim cartridge. The barrel and frame are marked with British view and proof marks and both locations are stamped "Not English Make". The cylinder has a British proof on each chamber. The top left frame is marked with the government ownership broad arrow / (His Majesty's crown) / A2 (inspectors mark) / E (Enfield). The half moon front sight has been cut to a smooth ramp configuration."
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Or this one in the same auction starting at $900 -
"Serial #8819, 44 Special, 6 1/2" pinned barrel with an excellent bore. This "New Century" revolver has been given a high polish with a deep, almost blue - black finish. The hammer and smooth trigger have been given the same bright blue finish with the sides polished "white". The smooth Smith & Wesson magna grips are not correct for this model but, are in near excellent condition overall with light handling wear. The revolver has the correct adjustable rear sight but a Patridge front sight instead of the Paine bead sight. The Smith & Wesson logo is still visible but, lightly washed out from the buffing and the barrel markings remain quite crisp despite the polishing. These were one of Elmer Keith's favorites in his early years of experimenting with the 44 Special cartridge and this one should make a great shooter with factory loads."
"Serial #8819, 44 Special, 6 1/2" pinned barrel with an excellent bore. This "New Century" revolver has been given a high polish with a deep, almost blue - black finish. The hammer and smooth trigger have been given the same bright blue finish with the sides polished "white". The smooth Smith & Wesson magna grips are not correct for this model but, are in near excellent condition overall with light handling wear. The revolver has the correct adjustable rear sight but a Patridge front sight instead of the Paine bead sight. The Smith & Wesson logo is still visible but, lightly washed out from the buffing and the barrel markings remain quite crisp despite the polishing. These were one of Elmer Keith's favorites in his early years of experimenting with the 44 Special cartridge and this one should make a great shooter with factory loads."
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And another in the same auction, only one bid at $600 -
"Serial #539, 44 Special, 6 1/2" pinned barrel with an excellent bore. This "New Century" revolver retains about 90% of its original blue finish with most of the loss at the muzzle where it has flaked to a brown hue. There is some handling wear on the grip frame and a turn ring present on the cylinder. The hammer and smooth trigger retain their vivid case-hardened colors with the right side of the trigger worn to gunmetal gray with traces of color remaining. The grips are the correct walnut diamond centered checkered pattern featuring a gold Smith & Wesson medallion but are unnumbered. Overall, they are in near excellent condition with light handling wear and three "notches" cut into the top of the left panel The bottom is stamped COSSAR with hand scribed initials RC. The bottom of the right grip panel also has hand scribed initials RC with a naval anchor separating them. This interesting revolver has correct matching serial numbers on all appropriate parts and is hand stamped R on the butt behind the serial number and RWC in front of the serial number. No immediate information came to light on Mr. Cossar as it would be interesting to know if the three notches were for bringing to bag two legged or four legged quarry. Some research may bring that information to light potentially revealing a very interesting past for this beautiful condition, low number Triple Lock."
"Serial #539, 44 Special, 6 1/2" pinned barrel with an excellent bore. This "New Century" revolver retains about 90% of its original blue finish with most of the loss at the muzzle where it has flaked to a brown hue. There is some handling wear on the grip frame and a turn ring present on the cylinder. The hammer and smooth trigger retain their vivid case-hardened colors with the right side of the trigger worn to gunmetal gray with traces of color remaining. The grips are the correct walnut diamond centered checkered pattern featuring a gold Smith & Wesson medallion but are unnumbered. Overall, they are in near excellent condition with light handling wear and three "notches" cut into the top of the left panel The bottom is stamped COSSAR with hand scribed initials RC. The bottom of the right grip panel also has hand scribed initials RC with a naval anchor separating them. This interesting revolver has correct matching serial numbers on all appropriate parts and is hand stamped R on the butt behind the serial number and RWC in front of the serial number. No immediate information came to light on Mr. Cossar as it would be interesting to know if the three notches were for bringing to bag two legged or four legged quarry. Some research may bring that information to light potentially revealing a very interesting past for this beautiful condition, low number Triple Lock."
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Everybody knows that the .45 ACP is the King of Creation when it comes to military pistol cartridges and remained so until Elmer graced the world with the .44 Magnum, thus making it possible for Hollywood to make "Dirty Harry".
The .45 ACP actually scores 72 on the Hatcher Scale for Relative Stopping Power. My Lugers count HALF of that.
Don't tell anyone, but the .455 scores 74 on the Hatcher.
The .45 ACP actually scores 72 on the Hatcher Scale for Relative Stopping Power. My Lugers count HALF of that.
Don't tell anyone, but the .455 scores 74 on the Hatcher.
You know, that makes no sense to me whatsoever. The big American double action revolvers were originally designed to shoot American rather than British cartridges - the exact same cartridges that Americans had been firing out of their single action revolvers since 1873. In other words: .45 Long Colt. When the British approached Smith & Wesson to fill military contracts (because Webley didn't have enough production capacity to make a standard British Army revolver for every British or Commonwealth soldier who suddenly needed one) all S&W did was take its standard big revolver and modify it to shoot the shorter British .455 cartridge by leaving a step inside the chamber.
So the old .455 Smith & Wesson revolver (with commercial bluing & S&W brass-logoed wood grips but British proofs and 'sold out of Service' double-facing Broad Arrow marks on it) that I had a gunsmith convert to .45 Long Colt for me loads and fires factory .45LC cartridges with no problems at all... (Note: Before anyone screams too loudly in horror, that modification was done back in 1989. Most police forces still carried revolvers, and the big old milsurp Smiths were common as dirt up here - and almost unsaleable in .455.)
Now, I'm a little sorrier about my other .455 S&W revolver that was also converted to .45LC, because it has a Canadian C-Broad Arrow marking, so it probably went overseas with the CEF in WW1. On the other hand, I suspect that conversion was done sometime back in the 1970s or 1980s too, and almost certainly by a gunsmith who was a revolver expert at someplace like a S&W warranty depot: changed from .455 to .45LC, adjustable rear sight and ramped front sight fitted, S&W oversized wood target grips fitted, and all the metal perfectly hot reblued.
Beautiful gun. And no trouble loading factory .45 Long Colt in it either.
As I'm concerned, the main reason NOT to re-chamber a S&W Triple Lock or New Century from .455 to .45LC or .45ACP has nothing to do with any technical problems with the calibre conversion and everything to do with not destroying a piece of military history - much like one shouldn't convert an original full-wood SMLE into a sporter or use a mint P-14 as the basis for a custom wildcat rifle nowadays, even though that was the fashion 50 years ago.
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Actually, you can find RNWMP/RCMP Colt New Services chambered in both cartridges. Originally, the Force ordered the New Services in .455 - probably because that was the cartridge they were then using in their old Enfield .476/.455 revolvers, and it was the British army standard. Then, sometime around about 1915, I think it was, the Force switched over to ordering the same revolvers in .45 Colt.
I've never seen an explanation for the change. I suspect it may have had to do with ammunition supply: with Canada and Great Britain deeply involved in the War and stretched to the limit to supply ammo to the troops, and the US still neutral, it may have been easier for the police to get bulk shipments of ammo in an American calibre from an American manufacturer instead of trying to pry .455 loose from the British/Canadian military supply. Especially since they were now buying their pistols from the US rather than the UK anyway.
Yes, apparently the .45LC ones were used in eastern Canada while the .455 Colt models were used in Western Canada. Peculiar that they would use both calibers given that Dominion ammo was universally available for both.
OK, that Triple arrived yesterday and it's actually a 2nd model.
Which is actually pretty cool as it likely saw service.
I know pictures will be required so what am I looking to capture, any particular marks?
I grabbed a box of Hornady 45 Schofield brass, 45 ACP dies and a lyman 45 LC 250 grain mold yesterday and while it took a bit of f*rting around the brass are easily enough fitted to the revolver.
What charge of Unique does this this cartridge want?
And pic's will be coming...promise.
Which is actually pretty cool as it likely saw service.
I know pictures will be required so what am I looking to capture, any particular marks?
I grabbed a box of Hornady 45 Schofield brass, 45 ACP dies and a lyman 45 LC 250 grain mold yesterday and while it took a bit of f*rting around the brass are easily enough fitted to the revolver.
What charge of Unique does this this cartridge want?
And pic's will be coming...promise.
