Thoughts on the Tokarev SVT 40?

[SlasH58]

Sellier and Bellot makes SP load ammunition, PRIVI makes loaded SP and FMJ.

Sniper variets have a notch going across the receiver at the rearmost point before it ends. Also has small rails machined in the sides of the receiver. I think westrifle has a pic on their site, use the banner up top to take a look.
I have two SVTs btw and love them!

Thanks, CanadianAR!
Well, I went back to the gun store and looked the SVT over again. The armoury stamp indicates that it's a 1941 Tula. It has the four-port muzzle brake and seems to be in decent shape, but I didn't get to inspect the bore. No notch at the rear of the receiver for scope mounting. The forearm furniture seems to be a bit loose, though (i.e.; slides front-to-back slightly), is that normal? I couldn't tell if the stock had ever been repaired, so I'll take that as being a positive.

I have one outfitted with an aftermarket scope mount and a Burris Fullfield II 3-9x.

Epoxy7, do you have this mounted on your sniper variant and does it use the standard SVT scope mount? If not, could you please post a picture or two? I'd be interested in seeing how folks would mount a scope on the non-sniper variant. If it can be done without butchering the rifle, I might put it on the "to do" this...

Thanks again to everyone for the great information. It looks like I'll be picking one up in the next couple of weeks...

 

[Epoxy7]

A quick read of history finds that the Garand was first built in 1924

The SVT is an improvement on the SVT38 first produced in 1939.

Now go back and take a look at the gas system of the Garand. They changed it later on so it actually worked properly. The change was done after the SVT38 if I remember correctly.

 

[Epoxy7]

I have the aftermarket rail on a regular SVT40 not the sniper. It sits in the two groves and uses screws so it doesn't permantly modify your rifle. There is concern that it can slip when firing. I've used a torque screwdriver on all the screws to keep the the same torque. Also the muzzle brake while loud does work well at reducing recoil so hopefully this setup will work.

I've got some 174 SMK (.303) with Lapua 7.62x53r(been told this works as well for the 7.62x54r), some varget and BR primers to test out. I'll try out a bunch of different rounds later as well.

 

[Beadwindow]

I have the aftermarket rail on a regular SVT40 not the sniper. It sits in the two groves and uses screws so it doesn't permantly modify your rifle. There is concern that it can slip when firing. I've used a torque screwdriver on all the screws to keep the the same torque. Also the muzzle brake while loud does work well at reducing recoil so hopefully this setup will work.

I've got some 174 SMK (.303) with Lapua 7.62x53r(been told this works as well for the 7.62x54r), some varget and BR primers to test out. I'll try out a bunch of different rounds later as well.

I should note that some SVT 40s lack the grooves on the side of the receiver (I'm not talking about the notch in the rear for the sniper mount) which is required to install the commercial mount. I have an SVT 40 with the grooves and one without.

Anyone planning on scoping theirs would want to confirm the receiver set-up beforehand.

Regards,

Frank

 

[smellie]

Gas-trap Garand was approved and adopted in 1934, in calibre .276, then quickly re-engineered to 30-'06 to handle the M1 cartridge. The earlier Garand rifles were primer-actuated, then gas-trap. The "improved" Garand was built starting in 1938 IIRC; it certainly was well in production before the invasion of Poland.
.

 

[Epoxy7]

Gas-trap Garand was approved and adopted in 1934, in calibre .276, then quickly re-engineered to 30-'06 to handle the M1 cartridge. The earlier Garand rifles were primer-actuated, then gas-trap. The "improved" Garand was built starting in 1938 IIRC; it certainly was well in production before the invasion of Poland.
.

Development for the SVT38 began in the 1930s, and produced in fairly ambitious numbers in 1939. It was fielded in the 1939-1940 Winter war with Finland. 150,000 were produced by March 1940 when production ceased and the newer 1940 model was produced. Many existingSVT38 rifles were converted to the SVT40 rifle.

The Garand was later changed from a gas trap to a gas port system in 1939 and didn't really see production until 1939. The barrel and gas cylinder were also redesigned before entering production in early 1940.

The Garand wasn't really before the SVT at all. At least not in the form that was used in WWII. I consider them parallel developments. Although I have to say I prefer the SVT over the Garand. Mostly because of it's extra features, such as a 10 round detachable mag, built in muzzle brake and lighter weight. Both rifle designs continued on. The Garand into the M14, and SVT rifle action in the FN FAL (Same operating principle and possibly designed first by FN). For today non military rifles such a the mini14 carry on the Garand system, while the Kel-Tec RFB would be an example of the SVT40/FN FAL operating principle.

 

[SlasH58]

receiver grooves

I should note that some SVT 40s lack the grooves on the side of the receiver (I'm not talking about the notch in the rear for the sniper mount) which is required to install the commercial mount. I have an SVT 40 with the grooves and one without.

Anyone planning on scoping theirs would want to confirm the receiver set-up beforehand.

Regards,

Frank

Thanks, Frank. The rifle I'm picking up is a 1941 Tula, but I didn't look for receiver grooves. Who makes your scope mount, Epoxy7? Next question is..where can I get one?

 

[Epoxy7]

Thanks, Frank. The rifle I'm picking up is a 1941 Tula, but I didn't look for receiver grooves. Who makes your scope mount, Epoxy7? Next question is..where can I get one?

If it's a 41 then I would be very surprised if it didn't have the rails. I recall reading late 1942 and the rare later ones often didn't have the rails.

I'm not sure the brand of mount. I think Frontier was selling them. Sort of ugly but if it works then it's good. You can still use the iron sights with it as well. I'm using my iPhone right now so no pictures of it.

 

[Airwolf]

... Although I have to say I prefer the SVT over the Garand. Mostly because of it's extra features, such as a 10 round detachable mag, built in muzzle brake and lighter weight....

Interesting...I thought the SVT was the same, if not a little heavier than the Garand (which I have)...I would like to get one, but there seems to be a lack of availability for extra mags (please don't say, "Buy more than one!", I`m already getting dirty looks from the wife)....Do you know if there is a place to buy extra mags?....
Also, since the SVT has an adjustable gas setting, what would be the best setting to start with?.....

 

[fiddler]

since the SVT has an adjustable gas setting, what would be the best setting to start with?.....

It can vary from rifle to rifle. Bring the gas tool and a mallet ( or 2x4) and start with the lowest setting. Too low setting will either not eject or load the next round.

If you change ammunition, you will have to re-adjust the gas setting.

 

[svt1940]

If it's a 41 then I would be very surprised if it didn't have the rails. I recall reading late 1942 and the rare later ones often didn't have the rails.

I'm not sure the brand of mount. I think Frontier was selling them. Sort of ugly but if it works then it's good. You can still use the iron sights with it as well. I'm using my iPhone right now so no pictures of it.

The manufacture of STV scope rail ended in october 1942, so the subsequent production didnt have rail anymore.

Interesting...I thought the SVT was the same, if not a little heavier than the Garand (which I have)...I would like to get one, but there seems to be a lack of availability for extra mags (please don't say, "Buy more than one!", I`m already getting dirty looks from the wife)....Do you know if there is a place to buy extra mags?....
Also, since the SVT has an adjustable gas setting, what would be the best setting to start with?.....

The SVT is a bit lighter than the Garand(wich i have btw) and i found it better balanced than a Garand. Repro mags are available but not for us
Thanks to our stupids gun laws. Also, they would have to be pinned before importing.... As for the gas setting, will vary from rifle to another but 1.3 setting is a good start, depend of the ammo too. 1 of my tokarev require 1.5 setting to work perfect in winter,in very cold weather.
Jocelyn

 

[Airwolf]

The manufacture of STV scope rail ended in october 1942, so the subsequent production didnt have rail anymore.

The SVT is a bit lighter than the Garand(wich i have btw) and i found it better balanced than a Garand. Repro mags are available but not for us
Thanks to our stupids gun laws. Also, they would have to be pinned before importing.... As for the gas setting, will vary from rifle to another but 1.3 setting is a good start, depend of the ammo too. 1 of my tokarev require 1.5 setting to work perfect in winter,in very cold weather.
Jocelyn

Thanks!....Looks I will be getting a SVT after all....

 

[johnnyreb65]

Development for the SVT38 began in the 1930s, and produced in fairly ambitious numbers in 1939. It was fielded in the 1939-1940 Winter war with Finland. 150,000 were produced by March 1940 when production ceased and the newer 1940 model was produced. Many existing SVT 38 rifles were converted to the SVT40 rifle.

The Garand was later changed from a gas trap to a gas port system in 1939 and didn't really see production until 1939. The barrel and gas cylinder were also redesigned before entering production in early 1940.

The Garand wasn't really before the SVT at all. At least not in the form that was used in WWII. I consider them parallel developments. Although I have to say I prefer the SVT over the Garand. Mostly because of it's extra features, such as a 10 round detachable mag, built in muzzle brake and lighter weight. Both rifle designs continued on. The Garand into the M14, and SVT rifle action in the FN FAL (Same operating principle and possibly designed first by FN). For today non military rifles such a the mini14 carry on the Garand system, while the Kel-Tec RFB would be an example of the SVT40/FN FAL operating principle.

Actually your wrong on both counts Tokarev started designing the rifle in the early 30's and entered the design in a 1935 competition the military was holding for a semi auto. He lost the competition to another designer named Siminov whose rilfe was entered into service in 1936 as the AVS36..The AVS36 had serious problems and Tokerorovs design was adopted into service as the svt 38 in 1939..Improvements to the SVT 38 came into service as the SVT 40 in 1940..

The SVT 40 and M1 have nothing in common. In fact the SVT 40 uses the same operating system as the FN/FAL and the dispute continues today as to who copied who.

M1 development began in 1921 when John Garand entered the first design in a competition..The M1 went through a serious of design changes until the FINAL DESIGN was adopted by the military in Jan 1936. ASIDE from a few minor changes to correct faults found during service the M1 stayed TRUE to the original rifle adopted in 1936. The redesigned gas system wasn't considered a redesign but an alteration not unlike the SVT40 being improved and designated the SVT40..The development of the M1 began over a decade before the Tokerov design. Both the Tokerov and M1 were competing in trials in 1935. the M1 was adopted in 1936 the Tokerov in 1938. M1 improvements went into service in 1939 ( gas system) the Tokerov in 1940. So no matter how you look at it the final version of the M1 went into service prior to the SVT40

 

[Epoxy7]

Yes I can read Wikipedia too. I still don't agree with the idea that the Garand as we know it was first. I've already stated why.

Anytime there's a Discussion about the SVT and Garand we run into this. Personally I think the biggest reason is Western propaganda. We knew very little about the eastern front. Most of the focus has been on the West. The equipment used by the Russians and Germans was as good and in many cases better than that of the western allies. T34 tank had sloped armor and unlike the Sherman could go up against German armor. The Russians millions of SVT rifles, The Germans made over 400,000 STG44 rifles. The casualties in the Eastern front were more than all the other theatres combined.

I don't have anything against the garand. I just don't consider it the first or best of the semi auto battle rifles in WW2 as it's often billed. I'm darn glad the western allies didn't have to fight against the Eastern front troops. The Eastern front basically won us the war.

I consider the SVT a great rifle to own. Amazing history, there's a chance the one you get might have been used in combat. Very underrated rifle which also helps with the price.

 

[johnnyreb65]

Yes I can read Wikipedia too. I still don't agree with the idea that the Garand as we know it was first. I've already stated why.

Anytime there's a Discussion about the SVT and Garand we run into this. Personally I think the biggest reason is Western propaganda. We knew very little about the eastern front. Most of the focus has been on the West. The equipment used by the Russians and Germans was as good and in many cases better than that of the western allies. T34 tank had sloped armor and unlike the Sherman could go up against German armor. The Russians millions of SVT rifles, The Germans made over 400,000 STG44 rifles. The casualties in the Eastern front were more than all the other theatres combined.

I don't have anything against the garand. I just don't consider it the first or best of the semi auto battle rifles in WW2 as it's often billed. I'm darn glad the western allies didn't have to fight against the Eastern front troops. The Eastern front basically won us the war.

I consider the SVT a great rifle to own. Amazing history, there's a chance the one you get might have been used in combat. Very underrated rifle which also helps with the price.

Yes I used wikipedia for the SVT as the rifle doesn't interest me..HOWEVER my garand info came from Know your M1 Garand Rifles written by E.J Hoffschmidt published in 1975..Hard to find book I bought in the early 80's..
This book outlines the history and development of the rifle, all variations, serial number/ manufacturer and complete stripping repair guide. You obviously have a thin for Russian rifles however the garands developement and deployment preceded the SVT. I'd argue the SVT is more of an influence to the German Gewehr41 .

 

[tokguy]

I've not even handled a garand, carbine yes ( owned one actually), battlerifle no.
I had an SVT, it was pretty cool.
The US " We are the best at everything " propagada spiel does get a little old though.
The en-bloc clip idea is a bit... hard to defend... compared to a removeable magazine.
SVT is a pretty formidable unit.
I'd tend to take the " Greatest battle implement ever designed" tag with a grain of salt. Our friends to the south do tend to get a bit carried away ' blowing their own horn'
By the way I'm 'merican on one side of the family, so don't lay that bias towards USA thing down.

 

[Desert_Fox]

Yes I used wikipedia for the SVT as the rifle doesn't interest me..HOWEVER my garand info came from Know your M1 Garand Rifles written by E.J Hoffschmidt published in 1975..Hard to find book I bought in the early 80's..
This book outlines the history and development of the rifle, all variations, serial number/ manufacturer and complete stripping repair guide. You obviously have a thin for Russian rifles however the garands developement and deployment preceded the SVT. I'd argue the SVT is more of an influence to the German Gewehr41 .

Actually, the G41 was more of a copy of the Garand "Gas-Trap" system as it used a muzzle cone to capture the gas similar to the first Garand....


Now if you are talking about the G43 I would tend to agree with you... The gas system is almost a complete and utter rip off of the SVT40... The Germans just gave up with their own "Gas-Trap" and "Doughnut" systems, swallowed their pride, and copied Herr Tokarev! When I have my G43 and SVT40 side by side, the similarities of gas systems is uncannily identical.... But of course the Germans patented theirs first, after they stole the idea from the Ruskies....

 

[MiG25]

Actually, the G41 was more of a copy of the Garand "Gas-Trap" system as it used a muzzle cone to capture the gas similar to the first Garand....


Now if you are talking about the G43 I would tend to agree with you... The gas system is almost a complete and utter rip off of the SVT40... The Germans just gave up with their own "Gas-Trap" and "Doughnut" systems, swallowed their pride, and copied Herr Tokarev! When I have my G43 and SVT40 side by side, the similarities of gas systems is uncannily identical.... But of course the Germans patented theirs first, after they stole the idea from the Ruskies....

what is truly original about any of the WWII semi autos? and how much comes from mannlicher and mondragon in the 1880's and 90's?

 

[Desert_Fox]

what is truly original about any of the WWII semi autos? and how much comes from mannlicher and mondragon in the 1880's and 90's?

It's all just a rip off of the Chinese and their invention of gunpowder anyways!!!

Personally I like my FN49 better! Some could argue it was developed before the final SVT40 system anyways..... Dieudonne Saive prototyped it in 1937... but those damn Krauts ruined everything again by invading Poland and starting another war...

 

[SlasH58]

Forgive my newbie observations, but I asked my question because I DON'T know much about the SVT 40 whereas a lot of contributors here at CGN could be considered experts on the topic.

Personally, as long as the rifle I have will do what I want it to do (i.e., shoot accurately and reliably), I'm going to be a happy guy!

I think we could say that any of the rifles mentioned in this thread have their place in history and have lead to even better decendants in most cases.

I've heard about the Garand being an excellet battle rifle, but that doesn't mean that the Germans, Russians, Swedes, etc haven't produced excellent variants of their own. Like cars, motorcycles, knives and many other items; people have their favourites, it's just that simple. That doesn't mean that other varieties or variants are any less respectable.

To say that one country or manufacturer's rifle is "the best there ever was" seems to me to be a tough statement to make, IMHO. Personally. the whole "which-came-first" arguement for these two fine rifles seems like semantics to me.