Three shot or five shot group?

m39a2 said:
5 will give you a better understanding of how your rifle will perform. 3 does not "Heat it up" enought to show any potential bedding problems or simple stock warpage. I have also used 5 as my line as I think it shows both the rifles potential and mine. Plus, ammo is cheap really when you think about and any round you put down range makes you a better shot. Also, get off the bench, shoot prone, sitting, kneeling and standing unsupported and supported. Use your sling and see how that changes you point if impact. (You know that "Strap" that you carry your gun with.) We have a lot of "Hunters" that shoot our military matches to practice for the hunt. It's amazing how poorly some of them do at first, then we show them some simple tricks. They usually come back the next year and thank us for showing them how well they can actually shoot!

Scott
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a hunting rifle should never be in a situation where barrel heat should be a concern. most animals are killed on the first shot. if you're shooting at game so much that your barrel is getting hot, I humblely suggest you start practicing a lot more.

and on the other side, you should see what happens when you take Mr. Tactical Mall Ninja out into the bush and have him shoot at something ALIVE. It's amazing how poorly some of them do at first, then we show them some simple tricks. They usually come back the next year and thank us for showing them how well they can actually shoot! ;)

multiple 3 shot groups, waiting for the barrel to fully cool between each shot, gives a far more realistic benchmark for a hunter.
 
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If you can do a good three shot group every time, great. If you can put a single shot in the exact spot you want it everytime, better. Single shot groups are usaully best on game. Unfortunately there's a few guys that run a phenominal (but fluke) 3 shot group once and figure they are super snipers who never have to practice again.

Shoot lots, in all conditions to really test ones limitations.
 
"and on the other side, you should see what happens when you take Mr. Tactical Mall Ninja out into the bush and have him shoot at something ALIVE. It's amazing how poorly some of them do at first, then we show them some simple tricks. They usually come back the next year and thank us for showing them how well they can actually shoot!",

I sit well and truely chastised and humbled sir. Damn my own works against me, what will they do next!

Scott
 
m39a2 said:
"and on the other side, you should see what happens when you take Mr. Tactical Mall Ninja out into the bush and have him shoot at something ALIVE. It's amazing how poorly some of them do at first, then we show them some simple tricks. They usually come back the next year and thank us for showing them how well they can actually shoot!",

Scott
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So true. Shooting on living animals is so different than paper under controlled conditions. Even the coolest cucumbers get rattled by game once in a while.
 
I still get buck fever. I don't really remember shooting. I know that I drop to one knee to shoot, but after that it's kinda wierd. I can't really tell you where I aim or how high I hold, or how far I lead, or even how far it is, if you were to ask me right after I shot. I probably would babble. I know I have a bit of a problem holding high (I've broken a few spines with my first shot) but the second always ends up where it ought to be. I've only ruined one tender loin oddly enough.
 
2 shots only, very, very seldom do you get a chance to actually use the third shot effectively.
The first shot is of course the most important of all, the second follow up shot can make the difference between a long arduous pack and the third is usually just plain desparation.

Always sight your rifle in from a cold barrel, preferrably fouled, just as you would under hunting conditions, with the ammunition you intend to hunt with. If your first 2 rounds from a cold barrel are in the ballpark and if you can find something that will stay calm long enough to let you shoot it, and you stay calm enough to shoot it in the boiler room, you will have a successful hunt. bearhunter
 
3 shots will probably do, but I like shooting 5. Why? I dunno, I just have a hard time stopping shooting when I'm at the range until all the ammo is gone......:confused:
 
If you can place 3 shots in close proximity then it is unlikely you will require more shots on a big game animal.
If you can't do so you should either be spending more time at the range, reviewing your choice of ammo, checking the bedding on your rifle or, in worst case scenario, buying a new one.
And for big game a consistent 2" group is ample.
As others have said half inch 5 shot groups are admirable but only for bragging or varmint hunting at most.

BTW, one last point.
Benchrest shooters who obtain astoundingly small groups don't shoot all 5 within a minute.
They usually space them out as long as possible so they have a completely cool bbl.
Their rifles also have heavy bbls and stocks to make them as recoil resistant and accurate as possible.
Don't confuse this sort of accuracy with the sort needed to place a single shot on a game animal with a light rifle after you've hiked halfway up a scree and your heart is still pounding.
 
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If you're doing load development then the larger (more shots) a group you fire, the more statistically significant the results will be. 3 Shot groups give you a small idea in terms of accuracy of a potential handload. Some BPCR competitors shoot 12 or 15 shot groups to see how their handload will perform over a string of shots in competition. If you get a 1 MOA 15 shot group, you've got a load!
 
BigUglyMan said:
If you're doing load development then the larger (more shots) a group you fire, the more statistically significant the results will be. 3 Shot groups give you a small idea in terms of accuracy of a potential handload. Some BPCR competitors shoot 12 or 15 shot groups to see how their handload will perform over a string of shots in competition. If you get a 1 MOA 15 shot group, you've got a load!
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Yes, but you've got a load for a BPCR match rifle.
If you can consistently repeat similarly tight 3 shot groups then you rifle is fine for hunting.
Tactical snipers like the police don't shoot groups: they shoot one shot out of a cold bbl.
If it isn't accurate then it's back to the drawing board.
In some respects hunting is more like that, especially for those who use single shot rifles.
Don't get me wrong, if you can put 12 or 15 shots MOA with your hunting rifle then great, but don't be like one particular shooter I know of who won't keep a rifle unless it holds 1/2 MOA out to 300yds.
The people he sells them to are laughing all the way to bank....it'll shoot 3/4 MOA but because the dumb jerk is selling it for being not accurate enough he has to drop his price.
If any rifle will put 3 shots close to or under an inch at 100yds then it's quite sufficient.
 
shots in group

I use 5 shots in timed strings to determine the most consistent load in most all of my guns. for sighting in hunting guns i only use 3 shots and shoot at a faster pace(basically as fast as i can work the bolt). paper punching guns and semis get 5 shots to sight in.
cueball
 
3 does not "Heat it up" enought to show any potential bedding problems or simple stock warpage.
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Depending on the cartridge,and on the barrel contour,three shots is often very adequate to expose any bedding problems or barrel stresses.In fact,firing more than three shots can heat a barrel to temperatures that increase barrel erosion and reduce barrel life if done repeatedly.I shoot three shot groups one after the other with no waiting period in between with my hunting rifles because that is the most likely scenario to occur while hunting.
 
Very interesting ...
I like what Kombi1976 said.
Tactical snipers like the police don't shoot groups: they shoot one shot out of a cold bbl. In some respects hunting is more like that, especially for those who use single shot rifles.

My lightweight wildernness roaming rifle is a Rem 600 [ which I just sighted in this afternoon ]. With the Rem 600 FOUR shot groups is just right, cause 4 round is all it holds.

However,
not trying to hijack this thread [ or turn it into "why the heck would anyone hunt with a semi auto argument"]

I also sighted in a couple of my M14 rifles this afternoon, and with these I fired off about 10 rds warming things up, BEFORE I got serious about groups.
5 rd groups, cause that is what an M-14 mag holds.

Next time out, for both rifles, I will also check as well where that first shot out of a cold barrel goes.

And for party crashing the Teddy bears picnic, I think I'd rather have my M14 than the Rem 600.

Different strokes for different folks
[;{)
 
Suppose a rifle is theoretically capable of keeping all shots within a certain sized group. Any three, five or fifty shots will be randomly distributed within the group. A rifle capable of only a 6" group at 100 yards, could fire a 1" group at, say, the extreme 12 o'clock edge of the circle. The zero could be a couple of inches from where the actual mean point of impact would be.
Three shot groups are fine for zeroing a big game rifle. But fire a few of them, so that you can be confidant that the first shot while hunting will have a chance of going where you want it. This is nothing to do with grouping capability or a test of a rifle's accuracy.
As far as absolute accuracy goes, a few three or five shot groups might give an indication of accuracy, but shot placement within the theoretical limit is random. Peformance established with a larger number of groups will be much more informative. The show and tell wallet bragging size groups are interesting, but hardly meaningful.
Benchrest shooters may often fire as rapidly as possible, in order to get a group fired during a single "condition". Wait, spread the shots out, and the condition could be different for every shot.
Whether a rifle will heat up and start stringing its shots as it heats up is really irrelevant for big game hunting unless something goes badly wrong. A target or varmint rifle with a good barrel, properly bedded, should hold its zero and accuracy from cool to hot. Fire a 20 round match on a hot day, and the heat of the barrel will be impressive, but the last shot should group right there with the first.
 
3 shots for me. I have found that I can fire the first two in quick succession, but must allow a bit more cooling time before letting the 3rd shot go.
 
Lazerus2000 said:
Next time out, for both rifles, I will also check as well where that first shot out of a cold barrel goes.
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I found something else quite interesting in terms of "real world" field accuracy this afternoon at the range.
After shooting a 0.77" 5-shot group @100m with my 25-20 Martini Cadet, which is incidentally it's best 5-shot group ever, I then began to pick out miscellaneous clods of dirt and other objects at about that distance and try to hit them.
I found more success with picking a target and hitting it once than trying to put shots on a piece of paper.
Now paper accuracy is laudable but I somehow got the impression that single shot accuracy was more rewarding.
It's is certainly unlikely that you will ever have any game stand still in the same position so you can shoot 3 or 5 shots into it.
We teach ourselves to maintain stance and control and not to move, but follow ups on game usually are a distance away from the original shot.
So we are forced to move and re-focus.
Is it possible that in group shooting we are teaching ourselves bad hunting habits?
 
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