Tier 0,1,2,3,4,5. For Modern Blackrifle Mil/Leo/Civi 2012/2013 Rankings

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Leibermuster

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BLACKRIFLE 2012/2013 RANKINGS!

CRITERIA: USE A 10 POINT SYSTEM IN EACH CATEGORY

1. Performance - Suppressed-FA-Recoil impulse - Torture Test/Race car like testing.
2. Reliability- Weather conditions
3. Longevity- Barrel Life, Parts Life before replacement.
4. Ergonmics- For a gun fighter-Barracks use- Parade-Combat application
5. Reputation- History by Unit users
6. Accuracy- MOA
7. Durability - Strength- Ruggedness- Damage Resistance
8. Sustainibility- Weapons systems ability to be used in circulation for use over several decades.
9. Function - Type of design/Internal components/external.
10. QUALITY CONTROL/MANUFACTURING

KEY POINT TO MAKE IT IN TIER ZERO, this category is for the best of the best, highest profile possible....HERO OR ZERO NO MISTAKES...

RULES.

1. Non-restricted vs Restricted or Canadian/international laws have no place in the Tier ranking process
2. Cost does not come into play.
3. Newest models only going back 2 years at the most.
4. What units are using said weapon system.
5. NO WHINING OR COMPLAINING
6. NO TROLLING
7. MORE RULES WILL BE ADDED
8. IF YOU DO NOT OWN OR HAVE DIRECT EXPERIENCE WITH SAID FIREARMS THEN DO NOT COMMENT ON IT.
9. STATE YOUR FULL EXPERIENCE WITH SAID FIREARM BEFORE ANY RECOMMENDATIONS.

TIER RANKINGS FOR 5.56MM RIFLES FIRST!

Tier 0.HK 416 A1-A5 98/100 : SR15: SWISS ARMS 553 93/100

Tier 1. DDMK18 83/100 : IWI TAVOR TAR-21 81/100 : HK416 94/100 : SWISS ARMS 550-551-553 93/100 :HK G36 : LMT : SR15 E3

Tier 2. COLT LE6920 76/100 :IWI TAVOR TAR-21(First Model) 76/100 : STAG 75/100

Tier 3. BUSHMASTER 72/100: STAG

Tier 4. BUSHMASTER:AR180 66/100

Tier 5.


The AR's in green are example, now follow the leiber plan...

This will be edidted, but first all let you guys make your own recomendations. A poll will be added. A WORK IN PROGRESS AND THE LIST WILL STAND FOREVER UNLESS GREENTIPS REMOVES IT......LOL.




BUYERS GUIDE


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PM me when wanting to put a review through....I will add to this over time and get it stcikied....
 
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F** yeah! I survived the purge! :p

Allow me to present Exhibit A: the IWI Tavor TAR-21 (were you expecting anything else from me?)

1. Performance - Suppressed-FA-Recoil impulse - Torture Test/Race car like testing.
Score: 8 The manual has things like "try to avoid running 8 magazines through on full auto in immediate succession" this rifle has performed well. I have it from authoritative sources that it functions fine suppressed, and the IDF has some videos of burying the rifles in snow and sand.​
2. Reliability- Weather conditions
Score: 6 The Isreali guys would hang me for saying this. But I have personal experience with reliability issues.​
3. Longevity- Barrel Life, Parts Life before replacement.
Score: 7 Hard for me to judge at this point. I've replaced my bolt hold open after the P-mags incident. However the barrel, and other parts have been made to damn
4. Ergonmics- For a gun fighter-Barracks use- Parade-Combat application
Score: 10 This I will straight up give a ten to. Especially when you get into the shorter barrel lengths that Tavor is a great bullpup to hold, carry, and shoulder.​
5. Reputation- History by Unit users
Score: 9 It was made for the IDF. We got into our counter insurgency war 10 years ago, but they've been doing it for more like 50 years.​
6. Accuracy- MOA
Score: 6 Until I or some other ambitious Tavor shooter produces some really good really consistent groups, I call this a 2MOA gun.​
7. Durability - Strength- Ruggedness- Damage Resistance
Score: 8 Despite some initial reservations about polymer, the Tavor seems to have held up well both in my personal use and in the IDF​
8. Sustainibility- Weapons systems ability to be used in circulation for use over several decades.
Score: 6 No way to know yet. Has only been in various stages of release since the early 2000s. However this week several Israeli newspapers ran articles on how more IDF units are switching over to Tavor platforms​
9. Function - Type of design/Internal components/external.
Score: 9 That Tavor covers a lot of bases out of the box. The full ambidexterity, setup of the charging handle, safety, mag release and bolt release all work damn well in my book. Also factor in IDF specific things like turning the safety off turns your red-dot and laser on.​
10. QUALITY CONTROL/MANUFACTURING
Score: 7 I heard problems about the original designs. There were rumours of some inconsistent gas systems. I personally haven't seen any problems, but I've noticed some wear and tear on smaller parts (sling mounts)​

Ya'll want some pictures?
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Swiss Arms 550-551-553 should be Tier 1 or better

My experience: about 10 000 rounds through Swiss Rifles in the last 2 years.

All of this info is tidbits taken from the Technical Test Data from SAN http://www.biggerhammer.net/sigamt/550/550techinspection/

1. Performance - Suppressed-FA-Recoil impulse - Torture Test/Race car like testing.
Score: 10 Pretty standard cook-off threshold of about 240 rounds/min. For the endurance trial. a total of 15,000 rounds shall be fired from each test weapon. SAN offers suppression kit's and there's a new 4 position gas regulator that can turn the gas completely off for use with a suppressor.

2. Reliability- Weather conditions
Score: 10 Even with the issues my Black Special had, after much discussion with SAN and others, this kind of issue had never been encountered before. These rifles are very reliable, many user's report 10 000+ rounds without stoppages. As far as weather goes, During the trial, the weapon is exposed to a water shower equivalent to approx. 10 mm/min. or 600 +- 76 mm/h, there is also a vigorous sand and mud testing thats harder to put in point form, they then Expose each weapon, together with at least 600 rounds of ammunition in magazines, to a temperature of - 300C for 12 hours. Then from the cold storage chamber, held at - 30'C, fire 12 strings of 50 shots. If that wasn't enough they Expose the weapon and 40 rounds in 2 magazines to a temperature of - 100C for 6 hours. Support the weapon on its bipod and then spray it lightly with water until a layer of ice at least 3 mm thick has formed on the surface. Then using only a bayonet make the rifle ready to fire.

3. Longevity- Barrel Life, Parts Life before replacement.
Score: 10 Extended service life, apparently depending on the grade of ammunition used, the barrel has to be changed after approx. 20000 up to 30000 rounds have been fired. 15000 rounds for wearing parts of the bolt assembly are quite feasible: other small components will last for anything up to 30000 rounds. Major components such as trigger housing, bolt, receiver, plastic parts, the main components of the trigger action may readily be expected to withstand 40000 rounds. There are weapons at the plant which have major components still fully functional after firing 80000 up to 100000 rounds.

4. Ergonmics- For a gun fighter-Barracks use- Parade-Combat application
Score: 8.5 The Swiss suffers a bit in Ergo's, It's a Swiss AK with the major differences being a last shot bolt hold open, and a paddle bolt release. This improves Ergos quite a big, but it basically runs like an AK. Non standard use of STANAG mags hurts the Swiss in the ergos, even though proprietary mags are more reliable they slow you down just a fraction of a second, which counts. The right side charging handle is a detractor to some, but most just run AK drills and when done properly, AK drill can be very fast too, but hey let's be honest, AK's are old and ergo's have come a long way since then.

5. Reputation- History by Unit users
Score: 9.5 Hard to say with this one, not a lot of written history out there, to my knowledge even HK has stated "Of course the SG550 is best, the price killed it". It was designed for and has been is use by the Swiss Military since the early 90's. It was one of the only rifles other than the AK to complete the Azerbaijani Sand endurance testing. I couldn't find data on that sorry.

6. Accuracy- MOA
Score: 10 I have heard that for a service rifle they are very accurate. My experience doesn't include a lot of bench shooting with them, but it has been very accurate out to 500m for me, thats as far as I've shot with one. A lot of users here feel the non free floated barrel hurts the Swiss in this department, and yet the standards that SAN set's for accuracy are very demanding: Firing a 24-round group, single-shot off the machine in a tunnel with a cold weapon at a range of 300 m. The 50 % windage and elevation dispersion shall not exceed a max. of 14 x 14 cm. Checking at random rifles out of production, firing a 24round group with the Swiss ammunition Gw Pat.90 at a range of 300 m, of f the machine, the 50 % windage and elevation dispersion will be in the average only 7 x 7 cm. Any result from an individual weapon, will not exceed a max. dispersion of 11 x 11 cm. That's pretty demanding no?


7. Durability - Strength- Ruggedness- Damage Resistance
Score: 10 I can personally attest to the damage resistance of the finish of these guns, the receiver's are painted with a think enamel that requires little to no maintenance. A lot of this is addressed above, in the endurance trials. SAN won't release the materials they used to make the hand guard as it sustains higher temps than any other and wont melt(Apparently). In my opionion there buit like tanks, some think this makes them heavy, but in reality they are right in the same weight class as most similar barrel length piston guns.

8. Sustainibility- Weapons systems ability to be used in circulation for use over several decades.
Score: 9 Being designed in 1990, this weapon system has been around for a while and frankly doesn't look like it's going anywhere anytime soon. SAN is not producing guns for the military anymore as the contract expired and the originally ordered weapons are all still in use. These rifles were truly built to last, and be used for a long time. Scored it 9 based on it's age, the rifles came off the assembly line almost 33 years ago. The design is older still.

9. Function - Type of design/Internal components/external.
Score 9.5 It's a long stroke piston gun that's been around the block, problems were encountered in the 552 internals and they came out with the 553. Internal components are tough and built to last. External components are very user friendly and fully ambidextrous, that's more of a ergos thing though.

10. QUALITY CONTROL/MANUFACTURING
Score 10 In this regard it truly is a Swiss Watch, it doesn't make it out the door unless SAN has rigorously checked, inspected, and test fired.

Unit's using the weapons System:

GSG 9
PASKAU - Malaysian Counter-Terrorism Forces
DEA
FBI
Swiss Armed Forces
Tactical diver group of the Indonesian Navy
Polish Army Special forces
apparently a lot of PMC Security guys favor them
and more....

Pictures and video:


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Blackwater2005-RetiredMichiganPoliceOfficerandVietnamVetDanBoelen  sfromStPetersburgTimes_zpseeb7540c.jpg


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Operatorwith553LB_zpsb2fe02ce.jpg


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Pretty sure the Swiss guns don't deserve a 10 on accuracy. Every ar 15 I have owned shot tighter groups than my Swiss and I have owned a fair number of ars over the years.

I didn't think this was a competition between the Swiss and the AR. Is it not possible that they both deserve a 10 in the accuracy category? Were discussing Black Rifle's right, what earns a 10 in your guy's opinion? I feel the standards set by the Swiss for the accuracy requirements of any and all SG550/Pe90's earn this rifle a 10 in that category.

Firing a 24-round group, single-shot off the machine in a tunnel with a cold weapon at a range of 300 m. The 50 % windage and elevation dispersion shall not exceed a max. of 14 x 14 cm. Checking at random rifles out of production, firing a 24round group with the Swiss ammunition Gw Pat.90 at a range of 300 m, off the machine, the 50 % windage and elevation dispersion will be in the average only 7 x 7 cm. Any result from an individual weapon, will not exceed a max. dispersion of 11 x 11 cm.

That's pretty demanding no?
 
I think you were a little high steve janes :D



No. They's heavy #####ez

Sorry man, I like your vids and reviews but if you seriously think any bull-pup is more ergonomic than a Swiss Arms, your seriously out to lunch:onCrack:Laugh2Laugh2, LOL

Now with regard to weight:

A Full length Swiss rifle without the bi-pod weighs in at around 8.6lbs, that's with a 20.9'' barrel
Most piston guns of equal length weigh very similar, look up stats.

ACR with 14.5" barrel (7.8 lb)
XCR-L with 16" barrel (7.5 lb)
HK 416 "D16.5RS" with 16.5'' barrel (7.85 lb)
Swiss Arms Carbine with 17.9'' barrel (7.94 lb)

Just for you TV;):p Tavor with 18.1'' barrel (8.1 lb) Same Tavor with a 16.1" barrel (7 lb)


So yes the Swiss is a tad heavy, but you can't say it isn't comparable to others in the piston gun category.
 
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I think you were a little high steve janes :D



No. They's heavy #####ez

The Swiss Carbine (comparable to most AR's) is 7.5lbs, and most carbine length AR's are 6.5 to 7 lbs, so it's not really much heavier. If you want to compare a full length rifle to carbines in the weight department, go ahead, but the comparison is not meaningful.

I've handled and shot 2 different Tavors, and no way are the ergonomics superior to the Swiss Arms or a decent AR. I'd give the Tavor a 7 for ergonomics, the Swiss Arms an 8 and a modded AR (i.e. w/ LMT grip, BAD lever etc.) a 9.

That said, too many of the different sections are redundant (things like performance,reliability and function should be merged, as should longevity and sustainability), and a price/performance index should be included.
 
The Swiss Carbine (comparable to most AR's) is 7.5lbs, and most carbine length AR's are 6.5 to 7 lbs, so it's not really much heavier. If you want to compare a full length rifle to carbines in the weight department, go ahead, but the comparison is not meaningful.

I've handled and shot 2 different Tavors, and no way are the ergonomics superior to the Swiss Arms or a decent AR. I'd give the Tavor a 7 for ergonomics[/B], the Swiss Arms an 8 and a modded AR (i.e. w/ LMT grip, BAD lever etc.) a 9.

That said, too many of the different sections are redundant (things like performance,reliability and function should be merged, as should longevity and sustainability), and a price/performance index should be included.

I agree, comparing a full length anything to a carbine is stupid.

And certain sections should be merged, however price should have no impact on any of this. Price shouldn't and doesn't matter when your talking about the best.

I have sub MOA 10 shot groups with my Swiss Arms. If that's not a 10/10, I don't know what is.

Exactly (and unlike some others I have recently chastised, I have seen your pictures to confirm it) plus, the test data I included, if this doesn't earn the Swiss a 10 in this category nothing will.
 
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The Swiss Carbine (comparable to most AR's) is 7.5lbs, and most carbine length AR's are 6.5 to 7 lbs, so it's not really much heavier. If you want to compare a full length rifle to carbines in the weight department, go ahead, but the comparison is not meaningful.

I've handled and shot 2 different Tavors, and no way are the ergonomics superior to the Swiss Arms or a decent AR. I'd give the Tavor a 7 for ergonomics, the Swiss Arms an 8 and a modded AR (i.e. w/ LMT grip, BAD lever etc.) a 9.

That said, too many of the different sections are redundant (things like performance,reliability and function should be merged, as should longevity and sustainability), and a price/performance index should be included.

You have a real bee in your bum about that don't you....Don't worry all include a buyers guide at the end........the very end...just for you........

I don't want price involved because that is very subjective to the individual and people may have all sorts of different reasons or justifications....

This is what hung up the other Ranking system, and this is to determine the best Rifle's in there respective categories...


At the end of the day what I wanted to start here was not what is the best price necessarly but the best gun being placed where they belong, between users here and some very good sources I have we can get close to that and still be very accurate to the truth. Plus it's fun...
 
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I concur with AR180 shooter and Steve Janes views on the SIG55X.
I have never shot any better with any AR or any C7 that had standard govt profile barrels (because a match barrel is not a fair comparison) than I do with my Swiss Arms. They are on par accuracy wise and should both get a 10 in the accuracy department IMHO.
Not much else to say about the rifle that those two have not already said. I have had outstanding accuracy from mine out to 600 yards, have owned it for 4 years and have 3000 rounds through it most of it prone @ 300 -400.
 
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I concur with AR180 shooter and Steve Janes views on the SIG55X.
I have never shot any better with any AR or any C7 that had standard govt profile barrels (because a match barrel is not a fair comparison) than I do with my Swiss Arms. They are on par accuracy wise and should both get a 10 in the accuracy department IMHO.
Not much else to say about the rifle that those two have not already said. I have had outstanding accuracy from mine out to 600 yards, have owned it for 4 years and have 3000 rounds through it most of it prone @ 300 -400.

I don't own a Swiss Arms and most certainly would like to change that in the future....That being said I have to concur, I have fired several models here in Canada and a few in Germany years back, and found them to be an awesome rifle and better than the C7/C8 I was issued at times in the CF. The only draw back would be weight but really that is not a bg deal at all with a proper sling and depending on the mission as well. A basic stock Swiss Arms is a finely made rifle that is unique and unmatched in many regards. Oh I need to win the lottery...lol.

From the professionals I spoke to in Europe that use them on a regular bases they loved them, also the new models I believe are using lighter materials, that is what I remember from being a TACTV subsciber, LAV mentioned this recently, all have to go watch that part again.....wish I could insert a clip from the show...

Correction
Swiss Arms lower are now Forged aluminum lower hard coat annodized, as oppose to sheet metal.
 
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