Tier 0,1,2,3,4,5. For Modern Blackrifle Mil/Leo/Civi 2012/2013 Rankings
- Thread starter Leibermuster
- Start date
- Status
I'd write something about the XCR-L but I only have experience with L1A1,L85A1 and L7A2 in addition to the XCR-L. So I don't really feel qualified as I have no experience with AR-15,Swiss arms,tavor or ACR. So any values would be arbitrary with no relevance to anything else.
Steve - wouldn't you say that it would have been more appropriate to post pictures and or videos of folks (other than yourself of course) using PE90s in its full lenght configuration, rather than Carbine and CQBs?
Any feedback you have helps...pictures of shot groups helps to compare against other ARs or black style rifles, any videos you can muster will help in that process....I have shot a few XCR at the range but don't have anything difinitive to say about them myself, they seemed fine...
Steve Janes
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Calgary/Ontario
Not a lot out there
The swiss military is the biggest user of the full length models and there troops are not allowed to post pics or video's of them using there ranges in public. This limits the amount of playtime available for the full length rifles
Ar180shooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Ottawa, ON
Ok, so I'll cave and rate several firearms; however, I will be using modified criteria and add a few extra things.
Swiss Arms Rifle
1. Performance (reliability, etc.) - 10/10 - Virtually unbeatable reliability in any number of conceivable adverse conditions.
2. Accuracy - 10/10 - Minute of angle accuracy with good quality ammunition.
3. Ergonomics (safety position, ease of magazine changes) - 8.5/10 - Excellent ergonomics, safety position, etc. The big let down is the magazine release and extra time to do magazine changes.
4. Handling (weight, balance, etc.) - 6.5/10 - It is a heavier rifle, and it is front heavy. This is the major let down, but is really unavoidable for a rifle of this type with a long stroke piston.
5. Reputation - 10/10 - Stellar reputation with both the Swiss Army and the multitude of Police/Security forces using SIG rifles around the world.
6. Longevity - 10/10 - Very long parts life for all components.
7. Durability - 9/10 - Designed to withstand harsh military use.
8. Design (how well thought out, innovative, optics mounting, etc.) - 8/10 - Uses a gas/bolt system very similar to AK rifles. This means high reliability and simplicity.
9. Aftermarket support (availability of accessories, etc.) - 7.5/10 - There are a somewhat limited number of available aftermarket parts, but parts are becoming more readily available.
10. QC - 9.5/10 - Issues are rare and usually minor.
Total = 89/100
Retail price = $3600
$ per point = $40.45
Swiss Arms Carbine
1. Performance (reliability, etc.) - 10/10 - Virtually unbeatable reliability in any number of conceivable adverse conditions.
2. Accuracy - 9/10 - Close to minute of angle accuracy with good quality ammunition. My rifle has always shot a little better than my carbine, but this is not really surprising.
3. Ergonomics (safety position, ease of magazine changes) - 8.5/10 - Excellent ergonomics, safety position, etc. The big let down is the magazine release and extra time to do magazine changes.
4. Handling (weight, balance, etc.) - 8.5/10 - It is only slightly heavier than an AR with comparable barrel length and handles well.
5. Reputation - 10/10 - Stellar reputation with both the Swiss Army and the multitude of Police/Security forces using SIG rifles around the world.
6. Longevity - 10/10 - Very long parts life for all components.
7. Durability - 9/10 - Designed to withstand harsh military use.
8. Design (how well thought out, innovative, optics mounting, etc.) - 8/10 - Uses a gas/bolt system very similar to AK rifles. This means high reliability and simplicity.
9. Aftermarket support (availability of accessories, etc.) - 7.5/10 - There are a somewhat limited number of available aftermarket parts, but parts are becoming more readily available.
10. QC - 9.5/10 - Issues are rare and usually minor.
Total = 90/100
Retail price = $3600
$ per point = $40
Ar180b
1. Performance (reliability, design, etc.) - 8.5/10 - The only issues I ever had were user related.
2. Accuracy - 7/10 - It shot well, around 2 MOA with 55gr bulk ammo. Acceptable for a rifle of this type.
3. Ergonomics (safety position, ease of magazine changes) - 7.5/10 - Very AR like but no bolt release.
4. Handling (weight, balance, etc.) - 8/10 - Lightweight and easy to handle. Not front heavy like the Swiss Arms.
5. Reputation - 6.5/10 - Has a decent reputation with sports shooters, but is not in use by military/police/security.
6. Longevity - 6/10 - Hard to tell as this is a commercial grade rifle. The only major long term issue I see is the polymer lower.
7. Durability - 6/10 - Polymer lower had some breakage issues, not designed for military use but for commercial consumption.
8. Design (how well thought out, innovative, optics mounting, etc.) - 5/10 - The polymer lower is an issue, as is several other features of the rifle such as a lack of bolt release and the design of the gas block.
9. Aftermarket support (availability of accessories, etc.) - 5/10 - Very limited number of accessories and they can be hard to find.
10. QC - 7/10 - Pretty good, but could be better. The rifle was designed to be an inexpensive alternative to the AR-15, so with this in mind, QC was acceptable.
Total = 66.5/100
Retail price (before it was discontinued) = $1200
Going price = $1500+
$ per point = $18.05
Adjusted $ per point = $22.56+
The reason I include a price/performance ratio is I believe it is valuable. There is no doubt that the Swiss Arms is the better rifle of the two (Ar180b vs Swiss Arms or any rack grade AR), but is the extra price justified based on what you will use the rifle for? That is for the user to decide. I went for the Swiss Arms (and sold my Ar180b) as I felt the price was justified, because I wanted the better rifle. Sure, the Ar180b could be considered a better "bang for your buck" than the Swiss Arms, but it is a mediocre rifle at best, and $1500 will get you an AR15 that is much better than the AR180b. The inclusion of such an index will reflect this.
Swiss Arms Rifle
1. Performance (reliability, etc.) - 10/10 - Virtually unbeatable reliability in any number of conceivable adverse conditions.
2. Accuracy - 10/10 - Minute of angle accuracy with good quality ammunition.
3. Ergonomics (safety position, ease of magazine changes) - 8.5/10 - Excellent ergonomics, safety position, etc. The big let down is the magazine release and extra time to do magazine changes.
4. Handling (weight, balance, etc.) - 6.5/10 - It is a heavier rifle, and it is front heavy. This is the major let down, but is really unavoidable for a rifle of this type with a long stroke piston.
5. Reputation - 10/10 - Stellar reputation with both the Swiss Army and the multitude of Police/Security forces using SIG rifles around the world.
6. Longevity - 10/10 - Very long parts life for all components.
7. Durability - 9/10 - Designed to withstand harsh military use.
8. Design (how well thought out, innovative, optics mounting, etc.) - 8/10 - Uses a gas/bolt system very similar to AK rifles. This means high reliability and simplicity.
9. Aftermarket support (availability of accessories, etc.) - 7.5/10 - There are a somewhat limited number of available aftermarket parts, but parts are becoming more readily available.
10. QC - 9.5/10 - Issues are rare and usually minor.
Total = 89/100
Retail price = $3600
$ per point = $40.45
Swiss Arms Carbine
1. Performance (reliability, etc.) - 10/10 - Virtually unbeatable reliability in any number of conceivable adverse conditions.
2. Accuracy - 9/10 - Close to minute of angle accuracy with good quality ammunition. My rifle has always shot a little better than my carbine, but this is not really surprising.
3. Ergonomics (safety position, ease of magazine changes) - 8.5/10 - Excellent ergonomics, safety position, etc. The big let down is the magazine release and extra time to do magazine changes.
4. Handling (weight, balance, etc.) - 8.5/10 - It is only slightly heavier than an AR with comparable barrel length and handles well.
5. Reputation - 10/10 - Stellar reputation with both the Swiss Army and the multitude of Police/Security forces using SIG rifles around the world.
6. Longevity - 10/10 - Very long parts life for all components.
7. Durability - 9/10 - Designed to withstand harsh military use.
8. Design (how well thought out, innovative, optics mounting, etc.) - 8/10 - Uses a gas/bolt system very similar to AK rifles. This means high reliability and simplicity.
9. Aftermarket support (availability of accessories, etc.) - 7.5/10 - There are a somewhat limited number of available aftermarket parts, but parts are becoming more readily available.
10. QC - 9.5/10 - Issues are rare and usually minor.
Total = 90/100
Retail price = $3600
$ per point = $40
Ar180b
1. Performance (reliability, design, etc.) - 8.5/10 - The only issues I ever had were user related.
2. Accuracy - 7/10 - It shot well, around 2 MOA with 55gr bulk ammo. Acceptable for a rifle of this type.
3. Ergonomics (safety position, ease of magazine changes) - 7.5/10 - Very AR like but no bolt release.
4. Handling (weight, balance, etc.) - 8/10 - Lightweight and easy to handle. Not front heavy like the Swiss Arms.
5. Reputation - 6.5/10 - Has a decent reputation with sports shooters, but is not in use by military/police/security.
6. Longevity - 6/10 - Hard to tell as this is a commercial grade rifle. The only major long term issue I see is the polymer lower.
7. Durability - 6/10 - Polymer lower had some breakage issues, not designed for military use but for commercial consumption.
8. Design (how well thought out, innovative, optics mounting, etc.) - 5/10 - The polymer lower is an issue, as is several other features of the rifle such as a lack of bolt release and the design of the gas block.
9. Aftermarket support (availability of accessories, etc.) - 5/10 - Very limited number of accessories and they can be hard to find.
10. QC - 7/10 - Pretty good, but could be better. The rifle was designed to be an inexpensive alternative to the AR-15, so with this in mind, QC was acceptable.
Total = 66.5/100
Retail price (before it was discontinued) = $1200
Going price = $1500+
$ per point = $18.05
Adjusted $ per point = $22.56+
The reason I include a price/performance ratio is I believe it is valuable. There is no doubt that the Swiss Arms is the better rifle of the two (Ar180b vs Swiss Arms or any rack grade AR), but is the extra price justified based on what you will use the rifle for? That is for the user to decide. I went for the Swiss Arms (and sold my Ar180b) as I felt the price was justified, because I wanted the better rifle. Sure, the Ar180b could be considered a better "bang for your buck" than the Swiss Arms, but it is a mediocre rifle at best, and $1500 will get you an AR15 that is much better than the AR180b. The inclusion of such an index will reflect this.
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TV-PressPass
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Mountains, Alberta
Wait . . . AR180 shooter SOLD his AR180?????
That. Is. Not. Allowed.
That. Is. Not. Allowed.
TV-PressPass
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Mountains, Alberta
Solid reviews though!
Can we agree that some of the optics/cheek weld issues with the Swiss Arms series might be less than ideal? What about light or accessories mounting?
They're slick guns, I'm just not convinced that they're the "gun of guns"
Can we agree that some of the optics/cheek weld issues with the Swiss Arms series might be less than ideal? What about light or accessories mounting?
They're slick guns, I'm just not convinced that they're the "gun of guns"
Ar180shooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Ottawa, ON
I'd say tier 4. It's really not that good of a rifle, but is popular because of our laws.
Ar180shooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Ottawa, ON
Those problems are mediated by the use of a cheek riser or the flat top version of the rifle. I did; however, dock some points in design due to this.
Ar180shooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Ottawa, ON
Take it however you want, but I do feel that some of the criteria you listed are redundant, while other things to consider have been left out.
Like what? Please elaborate I can add some in...I know you have mentioned them before to me in private messages, but for the forum..
Some Categories I felt were deserving of more consideration than others.
Again Price and what the criteria of the purchaser decides cannot come into place here.
I will explain more in description of what each Tier actually means today.
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Ar180shooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Ottawa, ON
Performance and reliability don't need to be separate, and separating accuracy and reliability from the general notion of "performance" doesn't leave much. Barely anyone here has ever got (or will ever get) to shoot FA or a suppressed firearm, and recoil impulse has more to do with design (i.e. presence and design of a muzzle device, layout of the rifle) than performance. Longevity, durability and sustainability are also equally as inseparable. If you have a long parts life and a durable design, it follows that the rifle will be around for many years. Sure, you can add a separate category for that, but it does not add any useful information.
On the other hand, separating handling from ergonomics is adding useful information. The layout of a rifle can be very good, but it can be front heavy (like the Swiss Arms), or the layout can be good, but handling outstanding (like the Tavor). These notions, I feel, deserve separate categories. As does the addition of aftermarket support. It's great to have a really good rifle, but can you modify it to suit your personal needs? In this respect, the AR is the gold standard, and should receive points for it, while other guns like the Swiss Arms looses points due to somewhat limited parts availability.
TV-PressPass
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Mountains, Alberta
I think there's definitely a place for aftermarket support and compatibility. The Swiss Arms doesn't even take STANAG mags!! (I'm just going to trash that gun from now on 
)
Lets see if we can get a full page of posts thats just us three.
)Lets see if we can get a full page of posts thats just us three.
Some of what you posted will be adjusted, but some of that makes no sense in regard to what the "Tier Rankings" actually means.... Availibility is some thing that will be added to buyers guide at the end for example...
This is about what is the best Rifle/Carbine = blackrifle, not what is available or affordable according to Canadian laws, parts are available for the Swiss arms rifles anyways, I see no problem there...
The reason I seperated Performance and Reliability is to give more credence to the Tier 0 category especially....In Tier 0 Reliability deserves more emphasis in general, it is a very special need when the best teams burn through the most ammo.
Hey considering in the last thread you thought your Swiss Arms was only going to make it into Tier 2 you should be happy that it is where it belongs. From what I here from GSG9 members they don't have any problems getting parts for her....of course it is Not applicable anyways to the Tier Rankings....
Guys it is not about what is availble to civi and if it takes 6 months for you to get parts, this is not a buyers guide in that sense.
This is about what is the best Rifle/Carbine = blackrifle, not what is available or affordable according to Canadian laws, parts are available for the Swiss arms rifles anyways, I see no problem there...
The reason I seperated Performance and Reliability is to give more credence to the Tier 0 category especially....In Tier 0 Reliability deserves more emphasis in general, it is a very special need when the best teams burn through the most ammo.
Hey considering in the last thread you thought your Swiss Arms was only going to make it into Tier 2 you should be happy that it is where it belongs. From what I here from GSG9 members they don't have any problems getting parts for her....of course it is Not applicable anyways to the Tier Rankings....
Guys it is not about what is availble to civi and if it takes 6 months for you to get parts, this is not a buyers guide in that sense.
AlbertaGunslinger
Regular
- Location
- The Wide Open Prairie
Rob Arm XCR 5.56, My experience is about 1000 rounds through the newest generation, I have used it for CQB drills and for general shooting at 100-300m.
1. Performance - 10/10, when you need it to perform the XCR will no questions asked, recoil is barely noticable works well for slow fire and rapid fire. Outside of my own experience, the select fire version exceeded the US SOCOM trial requirements.
2. Reliability - 10/10 I have not had a single malifunction that was not 100% magazine or ammo related, if you must know I have had feeding issues due to a crap magazine and I have also had a couple slamfires using reloaded ammo with soft primers which would cause the same issue in any gun with a free floating firing pin.
3. Longevity - 9/10 Chrome lined cold hammer forged barrel gives the XCR a barrel that will last as long or longer as any similar rifle out there. The gas system and bolt are inspired by the AK47 but have the advantage on high quality production methods and modern engineering. The trigger mechanism is high quality and is similar to the AR15 and is likely as durable as high quality AR15 trigger groups. The only part that needs to be replaced after 1000 rounds is the recoil buffer, it has fragmented from use but still functions without issue. From my research this is due to the break in of the rifle suggested by Rob Arm, Almost all the damage to the part was caused by the inital 300 rounds of full power 5.56 with the gas system on the highest setting. Again from research if the rifle is broken in and used on gas setting 2 there is no issue with the recoil buffer. Also in term of longevity the XCR surpassed all the requirements of the US SOCOM trials.
4. Ergonmics- 10/10 This is where the XCR shines, in my opinion the XCR is the most ergonomic combat rifle/carbine in existance. The rifle design takes the weaknesses of AR15 ergos and fixes them while keeping the good aspects. In particular the left side non reciprocating charging handle and the ambi bolt lock/release. Also the FAST stock system is excellent, providing a folding stock with an adjustable LOP and cheek weld. Again in my opinion, it surpasses all its competitors in this category, the ACR, the SCAR and the AR15 only try to achive the ergos of the XCR. Now I know someone is going to bring up the weight but that is really only a detriment to the NR Canadian version due to the 18.5" heavy barrel. The XCR with a 16" light barrel is about 7.5lbs and the XCR mini with the stock is less than 6.5lbs. Those weights are very reasonable for the type of rifle/carbine.
5. Reputation - 7/10 Well the XCR does not have a very long history so this one is tough. So I suppose the first point is that this rifle was designed for the best, US special forces as it was submitted to the SOCOM trials. It surpassed all the requirements for said trials but was disqualified due to late delivery of the blank firing adaptors for the trials. Due to that the military application of the rifle is limited however it is still widely in use by many civilians and LEOs. The internet reputation centres around the lack of loctite in the original version but those problems have long sinve been solved.
6. Accuracy - 9/10 As far as I can tell the XCR can achieve the accuracy that you expect out of this type of rifle. With good optics and cheap bulk AE ammo this is a 2-3MOA gun. With match ammo and the same quality optics it is capable of 1MOA groups. I imagine with methodically developed handloads, that could be improved to sub MOA.
7. Durability - 9/10 Beyond the recoil buffer mentioned previously I have had no issues. The reciever is of very good quality and the finish seems to hold up pretty well, very few plastic parts on the rifle so I foresee it being very durable in the future as well.
8. Sustainibility - 7/10 Well the XCR has been around for almost a decade now and it is still kicking around. Based of the design, function and general awesomeness of the rifle I expect they will continue regular production for the foreseeable future (although an AWB would hurt them). The only issue with rifle is that since it is not widely used by military and is produced by a relatively small company, it will eventually somewhere way down the road become pretty rare which means rare parts for existing guns. Really the thing is once Rob Arm ceases production (again probably not for a long time) it will become less sustainable.
9. Function - 10/10 This one is easy, the XCR does everything it is meant to without issue, you load it and pull the trigger it will go bang no question. Due to the AK inspired long stroke gas piston it will also function in every condition you can throw at it. All the other parts in my experience also function flawlessly.
10. QUALITY CONTROL/MANUFACTURING - 7/10 The only reason this scores low is that in early production Rob Arm did not gave great QC, the manufacturing was fine butthe assembly was not thought out. As much as the loctite joke gets thrown aroung the early guns did need it and unfotunately it took Rob Arm a while to address that. The new production rifles however have no such issues
Total
88/100
Keep in mind that this is the XCR L as a whole. The newest generation solves pretty much every issue. So on a whole it is a tier 1, the newest generation is a tier 0.
1. Performance - 10/10, when you need it to perform the XCR will no questions asked, recoil is barely noticable works well for slow fire and rapid fire. Outside of my own experience, the select fire version exceeded the US SOCOM trial requirements.
2. Reliability - 10/10 I have not had a single malifunction that was not 100% magazine or ammo related, if you must know I have had feeding issues due to a crap magazine and I have also had a couple slamfires using reloaded ammo with soft primers which would cause the same issue in any gun with a free floating firing pin.
3. Longevity - 9/10 Chrome lined cold hammer forged barrel gives the XCR a barrel that will last as long or longer as any similar rifle out there. The gas system and bolt are inspired by the AK47 but have the advantage on high quality production methods and modern engineering. The trigger mechanism is high quality and is similar to the AR15 and is likely as durable as high quality AR15 trigger groups. The only part that needs to be replaced after 1000 rounds is the recoil buffer, it has fragmented from use but still functions without issue. From my research this is due to the break in of the rifle suggested by Rob Arm, Almost all the damage to the part was caused by the inital 300 rounds of full power 5.56 with the gas system on the highest setting. Again from research if the rifle is broken in and used on gas setting 2 there is no issue with the recoil buffer. Also in term of longevity the XCR surpassed all the requirements of the US SOCOM trials.
4. Ergonmics- 10/10 This is where the XCR shines, in my opinion the XCR is the most ergonomic combat rifle/carbine in existance. The rifle design takes the weaknesses of AR15 ergos and fixes them while keeping the good aspects. In particular the left side non reciprocating charging handle and the ambi bolt lock/release. Also the FAST stock system is excellent, providing a folding stock with an adjustable LOP and cheek weld. Again in my opinion, it surpasses all its competitors in this category, the ACR, the SCAR and the AR15 only try to achive the ergos of the XCR. Now I know someone is going to bring up the weight but that is really only a detriment to the NR Canadian version due to the 18.5" heavy barrel. The XCR with a 16" light barrel is about 7.5lbs and the XCR mini with the stock is less than 6.5lbs. Those weights are very reasonable for the type of rifle/carbine.
5. Reputation - 7/10 Well the XCR does not have a very long history so this one is tough. So I suppose the first point is that this rifle was designed for the best, US special forces as it was submitted to the SOCOM trials. It surpassed all the requirements for said trials but was disqualified due to late delivery of the blank firing adaptors for the trials. Due to that the military application of the rifle is limited however it is still widely in use by many civilians and LEOs. The internet reputation centres around the lack of loctite in the original version but those problems have long sinve been solved.
6. Accuracy - 9/10 As far as I can tell the XCR can achieve the accuracy that you expect out of this type of rifle. With good optics and cheap bulk AE ammo this is a 2-3MOA gun. With match ammo and the same quality optics it is capable of 1MOA groups. I imagine with methodically developed handloads, that could be improved to sub MOA.
7. Durability - 9/10 Beyond the recoil buffer mentioned previously I have had no issues. The reciever is of very good quality and the finish seems to hold up pretty well, very few plastic parts on the rifle so I foresee it being very durable in the future as well.
8. Sustainibility - 7/10 Well the XCR has been around for almost a decade now and it is still kicking around. Based of the design, function and general awesomeness of the rifle I expect they will continue regular production for the foreseeable future (although an AWB would hurt them). The only issue with rifle is that since it is not widely used by military and is produced by a relatively small company, it will eventually somewhere way down the road become pretty rare which means rare parts for existing guns. Really the thing is once Rob Arm ceases production (again probably not for a long time) it will become less sustainable.
9. Function - 10/10 This one is easy, the XCR does everything it is meant to without issue, you load it and pull the trigger it will go bang no question. Due to the AK inspired long stroke gas piston it will also function in every condition you can throw at it. All the other parts in my experience also function flawlessly.
10. QUALITY CONTROL/MANUFACTURING - 7/10 The only reason this scores low is that in early production Rob Arm did not gave great QC, the manufacturing was fine butthe assembly was not thought out. As much as the loctite joke gets thrown aroung the early guns did need it and unfotunately it took Rob Arm a while to address that. The new production rifles however have no such issues
Total
88/100
Keep in mind that this is the XCR L as a whole. The newest generation solves pretty much every issue. So on a whole it is a tier 1, the newest generation is a tier 0.
AlbertaGunslinger
Regular
- Location
- The Wide Open Prairie
Oh and after writing that, I agree this scoring system is redundant.
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