Tight group and .357/38?
- Thread starter Brianma65
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Regarding bullet weight, you can pretty much flip a coin. Though the 125 grain bullets work well, the 158 grain bullet, either lead or jacketed, generally offers better overall performance, especially in .357 Magnum. It is also the classic bullet for .38 Special. The heavier bullet will use a bit more powder, thats about all. Some revolvers might also show a preference for one or the other. But usually not enough to make a big difference at average handgun shooting distances.
I haven't done any research on bullet weight yet. I've been going by the factory weights so far. I've got some Hornady crustal Defense .357 mag 125g FTX and some sellier&bellot .38 158 FMJ . So that's where I'm coming up with those weights.
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After reviewing my latest post, I'd say just go with the 125's and don't look back. Less powder used and less muzzle flip. Accuracy about the same. Once you find a more suitable powder for .357, you're off to the races. I suppose if your budget can stand it though, it couldn't hurt to have bullets in both 125 grain and 158 grain.
Other than tradition, there is no legitimate reason I can think of, why the .38 Special is loaded with a heavier bullet than the .357 Magnum. When the .38 Special was introduced....if memory serves, this was around 1902.... it was originally loaded with a 158 grain, roundnose bullet. I believe its origins go right back to the blackpowder era, percussion .36 caliber Navy Colt. In any case, that bullet became the standard for the cartridge and remains so, today. Most folks consider the 158 grain bullet....including myself...as a versatile, all-around performer for use in the .38 Special cartridge. Including target shooting. That being said, I started shooting the much lighter, 125 grain bullet in this caliber some years ago, as it offered about the same level of accuracy, with far less recoil and muzzle flip. An advantage in competitive shooting.
The .357 Magnum....I believe introduced around the mid-1930's (Don't have a reference in front of me, so again going by memory) began life as a self-defence round, and continues as such today. A 125 grain, high velocity jacketed bullet turns this relatively small caliber round into a formidable man stopper. This is one of the reasons why many police departments adopted it when it was first introduced. So, the most commonly found loading for this round today, is still a 125 grain, jacketed bullet. Personally, I believe the 158 grain bullet is a better performer in the .357 Magnum...especially where used as a short range hunting round. Plus a general purpose target round. But, the 125 grain bullet does perform quite well, when matched with a suitable powder. I also adopted the 125 grain LRNFP bullet for use in my .357's, as it offered the same advantages in competition, as its .38 Special counterpart: Speed.
Hope this makes sense.
The .357 Magnum....I believe introduced around the mid-1930's (Don't have a reference in front of me, so again going by memory) began life as a self-defence round, and continues as such today. A 125 grain, high velocity jacketed bullet turns this relatively small caliber round into a formidable man stopper. This is one of the reasons why many police departments adopted it when it was first introduced. So, the most commonly found loading for this round today, is still a 125 grain, jacketed bullet. Personally, I believe the 158 grain bullet is a better performer in the .357 Magnum...especially where used as a short range hunting round. Plus a general purpose target round. But, the 125 grain bullet does perform quite well, when matched with a suitable powder. I also adopted the 125 grain LRNFP bullet for use in my .357's, as it offered the same advantages in competition, as its .38 Special counterpart: Speed.
Hope this makes sense.
Yes , makes perfect sense, I just read , pretty much , exactly what you said. You may have even explained it a bit better than the other guy
thanks. I'm going to get some tightgroup for the 38 and some 4227 for the .357. And that should do . I'm only punching paper anyway.
thanks. I'm going to get some tightgroup for the 38 and some 4227 for the .357. And that should do . I'm only punching paper anyway.4227 works reasonably well in the .357. Though I think its better suited as a light rifle cartridge. It does work pretty well in .44 mag. It seems to burn a bit on the slow side for the .357... at least in my opinion... and can be dirty, so use a fairly heavy crimp. Otherwise you'll likely find unburnt kernels of powder in the bore. That's generally a sign of low pressure. Hence the heavier crimp. You may find this powder performs better with a heavier bullet, too. I haven't used it with the 125 grain bullet, so can't really give an honest opinion of its performance. Only with the 158. N350 I haven't used. Mostly because I don't see any of it around. From my research, this powder seems to prefer a heavy bullet, too.
If I can recommend a good powder for the .357...especially for target shooting....Hodgdon Universal is an excellent performer. This has been my go-to powder for the .357...and 158 grain bullets..both jacketed and lead, for many years. Also very good in .38 Special...with 158 grain bullets. Unique is also a good performer in .357. A bit sooty...but good accuracy. A few years back I switched over to Titegroup in my .38, with 158 grain bullets, as it showed an accuracy edge over Universal. Was also a bit cleaner.
When I switched to the 125 grain bullet, I also switched to a faster burning powder. 231/HP38 being the natural choice. I use Titegroup also but, since I have more HP38 on hand, I decided to use it up, first.
This likely raises more questions than answers. But, hopefully some of this information is useful. The main problem with reloading the .38/357 I find, is that there are any number of good powders that work well with these cartridges. The hard part is finding just the right one for your gun!
If I can recommend a good powder for the .357...especially for target shooting....Hodgdon Universal is an excellent performer. This has been my go-to powder for the .357...and 158 grain bullets..both jacketed and lead, for many years. Also very good in .38 Special...with 158 grain bullets. Unique is also a good performer in .357. A bit sooty...but good accuracy. A few years back I switched over to Titegroup in my .38, with 158 grain bullets, as it showed an accuracy edge over Universal. Was also a bit cleaner.
When I switched to the 125 grain bullet, I also switched to a faster burning powder. 231/HP38 being the natural choice. I use Titegroup also but, since I have more HP38 on hand, I decided to use it up, first.
This likely raises more questions than answers. But, hopefully some of this information is useful. The main problem with reloading the .38/357 I find, is that there are any number of good powders that work well with these cartridges. The hard part is finding just the right one for your gun!
It all helps, I'm not ordering powder until tomorrow, so I have all night to look. I can get a 7 lb keg of tightgroup for the 38 ( no 1 lb ers). The only thing I've seen for the 357 , so far , is 4227 and n350. I'll keep looking.
Titegroup will work fine in the 357. I have used this powder extensively in the .357, with good results. Would I consider it the ideal powder for this bullet? Maybe not. But it does work, just the same. I would not hesitate to use it. It just so happens I have other options, right now. Unfortunately, you don't. But we can only hope, eh? This dry spell can't last forever.
If I can offer this piece of advice: Before you order any other powder, I would try it out in the .357 first. The ideal situation is to use the same powder/bullet in both cartridges in your revolver...which is likely what you'd like to do. If it doesn't deliver the results you expect, you can always order a different powder, later. The advantage of a keg is that the powder is all from a single batch. Therefore, it should all perform identically. Trust me, you will use it all up....likely a lot sooner than you think!
If you can get a supply of any of the powders already mentioned....like 231/ HP38 (essentially the same powder, now), Unique, Universal, etc., that's good. Otherwise, don't lose any sleep over it.
If I can offer this piece of advice: Before you order any other powder, I would try it out in the .357 first. The ideal situation is to use the same powder/bullet in both cartridges in your revolver...which is likely what you'd like to do. If it doesn't deliver the results you expect, you can always order a different powder, later. The advantage of a keg is that the powder is all from a single batch. Therefore, it should all perform identically. Trust me, you will use it all up....likely a lot sooner than you think!
If you can get a supply of any of the powders already mentioned....like 231/ HP38 (essentially the same powder, now), Unique, Universal, etc., that's good. Otherwise, don't lose any sleep over it.
Just now when it comes to handgun powders it's a case of "beggars can't be choosers". So while I do not agree with the idea that .38Spl and .357Mag should share the same powder I can also appreciate that at this point in time that one has to make do. And while not ideal for full power loads the Titegroup will certainly work.
If this were being used on a .44Mag S&W I'd be suggesting that you NEED to locate one of the more desirable powders that produces good velocity with the lower peak pressures. But other than a K frame gun they'll all take the punishment of the slightly higher peak pressure that Titegroup generates in the smaller chambers of a .357Mag.
If this were being used on a .44Mag S&W I'd be suggesting that you NEED to locate one of the more desirable powders that produces good velocity with the lower peak pressures. But other than a K frame gun they'll all take the punishment of the slightly higher peak pressure that Titegroup generates in the smaller chambers of a .357Mag.
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tagged great thread
I'm with BCRider. I wouldn't consider Titegroup to be ideally suited to the 357 mag. When there are others better suited. That's why, in an earlier post I suggested going with a light to moderate load for this cartridge. But it will work. Until a more suitable powder is available. Since most pistol powders seem to be in tight supply right now, it's a case of use what is available, or go without.
In the meantime, use what you have. Have fun with it while you learn about it. Its also a good time to study the loading charts for suitable candidates, while your 629 is on its way.
In the meantime, use what you have. Have fun with it while you learn about it. Its also a good time to study the loading charts for suitable candidates, while your 629 is on its way.
N340 load data does look interesting. I have not used this particular powder, but have used many of the ones near it. Such as Universal, Herco, 800-X and 4756. Admittedly, this was using 158 grain bullets only, in the .357. 4756 was used in limited quantities. I did find it to be a decent performer in .40 S & W, though. I see it also appears close in burning rate to CFE, which I believe you have some. If you can find some, it might prove to be a good performer. Certainly clean burning, from what I have read. I may see if I can scrounge some up, myself. Higginson Powders may have some. Will check later.
158 grain is the classic for 357mag. I use 4.8 grs of titegroup in it makes for a very accurate plinker load.
Never used them for 38 special.
