Timberwolf FTF, please help.

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Alpheus

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Made my first loads for my new-to-me Timberwolf, and they aren't firing. Used CCI 250 primers, and the dimple looks good but no click-bang, just click.

If another Timberwolf owner could do me a huge favor, and measure their firing pin protrusion and headspace of a fired case, that would be awesome.

My firing pin protursion is 0.054", the primers are recessed about 2 to 3 thou below the case head, and a sized case headspaces using a Hornady E420 comparator at 2.309".
I have already sized all my brass, my bad, so if someone can check a fired case, I can see what the chamber's headspace is.
From some googling, I think the FL die over-bumped the shoulder, but am having a hard time pinning down an exact number. The firing pin doesn't help, I believe the spec is 0.060".
If it is the headspace, I'll just ever so lightly jam the OAL and see if that helps, really don't want to pull 25 rounds.

Thanks in advance.
 
Alpheus,

What method are you using to prime? I had a bunch of FTF with CCI 250s priming with an RCBS press. In an effort to make sure they were seated deep enough I was using too much pressure and actually ruining the anvil in the printer. Switched to a Lee hand primer and not a single FTF since. Same batch of primers, same box. I was all over trying to figure it out, disassembled my bolt, worried about a short pin... Everything. Some sage advice from a forum and everything was right as rain. The Lee press mounted primer works well too. The RAM is going in the opposite direction than RCBS to prime so you have less leverage and way more feel. If you're seating them as deep as you say there's a good chance you're deforming them.

I hope this helps because it's about the least expensive solution and the simplest.

Willy
 
If you have a sized and EMPTY case, put a small piece of masking tape over the case head and try and chamber. If it goes in easy, add another layer and repeat... and so forth. At some point, the bolt will not want to close and you can measure the stack of tape. That will indicate how "short" the headspace on the sized cases are.

Ideally, you will feel resistance on 1 piece of tape... if making ammo for "working" conditions, resistance on 2 pieces of masking tape.

Anymore then that, you have an overly sized case. Form a false shoulder, cow fireform and then use a body die properly set up to the headspace of your chamber for future sizing

If there is resistance on 1 or 2 pieces of tape, then the issue is in the primer itself... or how it was seated.

Yes, you can jam a bullet and fire but you are still expanding the case under high pressures. This can stress the case web area and simply wastes that bullet and bore life. I prefer to fireform using much lower pressure and cornmeal. Given how expensive components are, why not just get some new cases and keep these for another rifle that might have a min spec chamber?

This is a prime example of why I do not recommend FL sizing as a blanket way to process brass. Size the case to fit the chamber... these dimensions will vary.... as will the dimensions of dies.

Good luck but I would pull the ammo if overly sized and reform to the proper headspace before full pressure firing. The last thing I want are stressed cases which separate prematurely causing another FUBAR.

Jerry
 
wilbar said:
Alpheus,

What method are you using to prime? I had a bunch of FTF with CCI 250s priming with an RCBS press. In an effort to make sure they were seated deep enough I was using too much pressure and actually ruining the anvil in the printer. Switched to a Lee hand primer and not a single FTF since. Same batch of primers, same box. I was all over trying to figure it out, disassembled my bolt, worried about a short pin... Everything. Some sage advice from a forum and everything was right as rain. The Lee press mounted primer works well too. The RAM is going in the opposite direction than RCBS to prime so you have less leverage and way more feel. If you're seating them as deep as you say there's a good chance you're deforming them.

I hope this helps because it's about the least expensive solution and the simplest.

Willy
Click to expand...

I use a RCBS hand primer, seating pressure was the same as when I seat 250's in my 7RM.
 
Mystic Precision said:
If you have a sized and EMPTY case, put a small piece of masking tape over the case head and try and chamber. If it goes in easy, add another layer and repeat... and so forth. At some point, the bolt will not want to close and you can measure the stack of tape. That will indicate how "short" the headspace on the sized cases are.

Ideally, you will feel resistance on 1 piece of tape... if making ammo for "working" conditions, resistance on 2 pieces of masking tape.

Anymore then that, you have an overly sized case. Form a false shoulder, cow fireform and then use a body die properly set up to the headspace of your chamber for future sizing

If there is resistance on 1 or 2 pieces of tape, then the issue is in the primer itself... or how it was seated.
Click to expand...

I got very slight resistance at 3, and definite resistance at 4 layers. Measures out at 13thou. Dammit.

Is this brass pooched? I've never screwed up headspace this badly before.
 
Last edited:
Alpheus said:
I got very slight resistance at 3, and definite resistance at 4 layers. Measures out at 13thou. Dammit.

Is this brass pooched? I've never screwed up headspace this badly before.
Click to expand...

Take one of your resized cases and measure the OAL and write it down

IMGP0710-1_zps1wlffukp.jpg


Next take a fired spent primer and using just your fingers start the primer into the primer pocket.

IMGP0704-1_zpsu8rohxmz.jpg


IMGP0706-1_zps9jbdmfqj.jpg


Now chamber the case letting the bolt face seat the primer as you slowly close the bolt.

Now remove the case and remeasure the case from the bottom of the primer to the case mouth and write it down.

Now subtract the first case measurement from the second and this is the head clearance or the air space between the rear of the case and the bolt face.

Meaning how much shorter the case is than actual chamber headspace.

And now the fix for short cases, with a upper medium load and the bullet jammed into the rifling, fire form the case. The jammed bullet will hold the rear of the case against the bolt face and prevent the case from stretching.

Or if your not Canadian shove the case up a timberwolves anus orifice and wait for the wolf to fart and blow the shoulder forward.
Warning, this a really crappy method and the cases must be wet tumbled with SS media while wearing rubber gloves.
 
Sounds like you should invest in a RCBS precision mic in the appropriate caliber. They tell you headspace and seating depths on your reloads. May be a little" campaigning" before Christmas is in order.
 
Cheeto said:
Sounds like you should invest in a RCBS precision mic in the appropriate caliber. They tell you headspace and seating depths on your reloads. May be a little" campaigning" before Christmas is in order.
Click to expand...

The RCBS precision mic only works with one caliber, and the Hornady cartridge case gauge will work on all calibers. And with the Hornady gauge you can spin the case in the gauge to get better readings.

I say this because I do have a .308 precision mic and the Hornady gauge is much easier to use.
 
Glad you found an answer to the sizing of the cases... yes, they are undersized.

Personally, I would just put the cases aside and use new cases of the proper size. But if you need to salvage, I feel creating a false shoulder then fire forming with cornmeal will have the least amount of stress on the case... and the cost of forming 50cases is similar to firing 1 bullet.

I would start with 5 cases and form however you want. Assuming they all go bang, resize properly and now test them at full pressure. If there are no obvious problems with the next firing, you may be fine for a number of firing.

Some brass is made of tougher alloy... alloy that does not like to be stretched more then a few thou. They will give ONCE but may now be brittle and crack very quickly even if follow up shots are sized properly.

But you will have answers to this, when you start shooting them.

Good luck.

Jerry
 
Alpheus said:
Lube the cases? Why? Won't that increase pressure, something I should be trying to avoid?
Click to expand...

When a primer fires, it drives the case forward. This will be even worse if the case is already too short and case stretching will be bad.

To reduce/stop any stretching, lube the case. Some oil or case lube will work. This will allow the case to slide back to the bolt face, without stretching.

On a full power load, this would increase the load on the bolt lugs. This is why I said to use a Start load.

Use this exercise to practice from stand and sitting, shooting unsupported off both shoulders. Your brass will now be fire-formed without stretching the cases. That is, the shoulders should move forward.
 
So I did a test with 12 rounds. Start load of 85gr, jammed 15 thou and very lightly lubed cases. 11 of 12 fired, no pressure signs. Headspace now measures at 2.318, so the primer trick was very accurate. Did the paperclip test and couldn't detect any thinning at the web. I'll gradually do this to all 50, and just keep them for hunting reloads.
200 1x fired just showed up, so will be quite careful this time. Incidentally they measure 2.322", guessing a factory rifle fired them.
 
Alpheus said:
So I did a test with 12 rounds. Start load of 85gr, jammed 15 thou and very lightly lubed cases. 11 of 12 fired, no pressure signs. Headspace now measures at 2.318, so the primer trick was very accurate. Did the paperclip test and couldn't detect any thinning at the web. I'll gradually do this to all 50, and just keep them for hunting reloads.
200 1x fired just showed up, so will be quite careful this time. Incidentally they measure 2.322", guessing a factory rifle fired them.
Click to expand...

Only Commie Pinko Pervert liberals lube their cases. :bangHead:.................. And real men know how to jam it. :evil:
 
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