Like most people who just got their license and are excited about buying a military surplus rifle, I was convinced in my mind that I was going to get an all original German k98 with matching serial numbers. Here is the reality of firearms. All military weapons are routinely inspected and repaired. Even if the numbers are all matching, it is not the exact same rifle that rolled off the assembly line . If a serialized component is replaced, techs will restamp it with the appropriate numbers. This goes for m1 garands, sks's, Lee Enfields and so on. Exact originals will be in a museum. Plus it will be very hard/ impossible to prove it to be true. Don't believe people when they have a one of a kind surplus. It rarely exists. If you truly want a rifle with the same serial numbers on it, go for it. A mismatched rifle will shoot the same as a matching one. Parts were made in mass quantities so don't expect extreme precision and no one was going to extreme lengths to hand fit parts on a infantry weapon.Yes some fitting is required for some weapons but manufacturers couldn't afford to spend alot of time to hand fit parts. Buy which ever rifle you want at the best rifle you can and spend the extra money on ammo to practice for marksmanship skills
Tips for people new to military surplus Rifles
- Thread starter leeds10
- Start date
maple_leaf_eh
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Yes, no, maybe so. The convention of marking serial numbers on every part big enough to show two or three stamps is very Germanic. A British No.4 has serial numbers on the receiver and the bolt. An M1 only has one serial, but parts changers use the drawing number stamps to source time-span specific parts. The SVTs common in Canada have electro-pencil marked serial numbers applied long after the fact.
I don't know that one can generalize. It can be really variable. Depends on what rifle, where it was used, for how long, whether it was transferred.
For example, Ross Mk.IIIB rifles were made in Canada, supplied to Britain. After the First War some went to the Whites during the Russian Civil War. Captured by the Reds. Supplied to the Mac-Paps during the Spanish Civil War by the Soviet Union. Captured by Franco's Fascists. Sold off surplus in the 50s. It doesn't matter in the least if a IIIB with a Barcelona Arsenal mark has all the same parts as when it left Quebec City; its history and provenance are remarkable. On the other hand, in the late '60s I bought a Long Branch 4T. Made August 1945. Shipped to the UK. Sat in its crate until it was sold off as surplus. Packing documents indicating when its storage had been checked. Never issued, never used, all original parts. Knew a chap who bought a converted auto Yugoslav version of the RPK. It came with its logbook. While in service in the Balkans, it had fired over 14000 rounds. The dates and number of rounds fired were recorded, signed off by an officer. All original parts after 14000 rounds? Not likely.
For example, Ross Mk.IIIB rifles were made in Canada, supplied to Britain. After the First War some went to the Whites during the Russian Civil War. Captured by the Reds. Supplied to the Mac-Paps during the Spanish Civil War by the Soviet Union. Captured by Franco's Fascists. Sold off surplus in the 50s. It doesn't matter in the least if a IIIB with a Barcelona Arsenal mark has all the same parts as when it left Quebec City; its history and provenance are remarkable. On the other hand, in the late '60s I bought a Long Branch 4T. Made August 1945. Shipped to the UK. Sat in its crate until it was sold off as surplus. Packing documents indicating when its storage had been checked. Never issued, never used, all original parts. Knew a chap who bought a converted auto Yugoslav version of the RPK. It came with its logbook. While in service in the Balkans, it had fired over 14000 rounds. The dates and number of rounds fired were recorded, signed off by an officer. All original parts after 14000 rounds? Not likely.
Here's a tip a very wise and experienced collector gave me, " Buy a gun. Buy a book."
Not necessarily in that order. The internet does not have all the fine details and documentation contained in my library. That information no longer comes cheap. You'll be spending money to make informed purchases.
Not necessarily in that order. The internet does not have all the fine details and documentation contained in my library. That information no longer comes cheap. You'll be spending money to make informed purchases.
- Location
- Western Manitoba
As above - ONE of the books here was listed on eBay for $1,300 - so might give you some idea what the "book" part is about - many others cost more like $50 or $80 to buy. Mostly, I have become interested in P14 and M1917 Enfield's made in WWI in USA - must be a dozen of them here - I have seen many for sale, for ridiculous prices - the odd one I have bought - missing parts, or seller did not know there was FOUR parts on a P14 that had the full serial number, and then most of the rest of the parts show the maker's stamp - screws, pins and coil springs excepted. Many Swede rifles here, made at the Swedish Government Arsenal have partial serial numbers on many parts - and another maker in Sweden did not use partial serial numbers on the same parts. For the Carl Gustaf made rifles, the main wood stock and the hand guard have the six digit serial number inside - you have to take the rifle apart to see them - so, to claim that you want the price for an "all matching" rifle, (which may not even actually exist any more) because there is the same serial number on the bolt handle as on the receiver, is fooling many folk, for many types of "milsurp" rifles.
MosinMan13
CGN Regular
- Location
- Thornbury Ontario
Sorry but no.
Matching numbers may not guarantee a premium grade rifle, but mismatched rifles can vary greatly, from distributors to some guys basement. I’ve had mismatched guns I would not shoot, they failed headspace checks and rightly didn’t feel safe.
Alternatively I’ve had matching rifles that looked better than examples I’ve seen at museums, and some that were clearly mishandled or refinished at some point, but I’ve never had a mismatched gun come close to my examples of matching.
The best advice you can give newbies to milsurps, is don’t take anyones opinions for facts, not mine, yours or anyone else’s. Read, watch videos and get out in the world and experience them with your own hands. The internet has enabled far too many people to decide what they think matters.
OP, these guys will beat you to death with their personal desires.
The big thing about collecting is that there are different wants and needs for every individual collector.
I know a fellow, now deceased, who collected P38s and P08s. They had to be mint, unissued or he considered them to be junk.
As for which grade of rifle shoots better?
It works this way. Some rifles shoot better than others, that's life. I've had the opportunity to take ten new in-wrap Mauser 98s out of the crate, clean them and shoot them with period-correct, issue ammunition. Same ole, same ole. Some of them shot very well, others shot acceptably within the specified requirement.
I've seen FTRed rifles do exactly the same thing.
This is what it all boils down to.
Most, not all of the unissued and FTRed stuff is long gone. There may be some squirreled away in government storage facilities, but they're almost impossible to find, let alone get them out of government control.
That means what's in civilian hands is all there is and there won't be any more coming.
Old farts, such as myself are getting long in the tooth and are starting to sell off their collections.
I noticed this at the Chilliwack show last week. There were close to 600 tables. It's now the largest show in Canada.
At least a third of the tables were covered with milsurp rifles, including muzzle loaders, early black powder cartridge types, just about everything still legal to sell that saw service beyond the Viet Nam War.
hundreds of Mausers, Lee Enfields, Sniders, Springfields, SKSs, Garands, etc.
Ammo was available but expensive.
There were dozens of newbies, fondling everything and lamenting the prices.
They had to be careful, lots of the firearms on those tables were not FTRed by any government armory. Many are put together with surplus parts.
Don't get me wrong, for the most part, they're very well done and it's pretty easy to tell what they are. Many are beautiful and a lot of care and time has gone into them. Some??????????
Most of the put togethers, were selling anywhere from $800 to $1100, depending on the condition. Anything original or gone through an arsenal FTR started at $1200 and went up from there.
My advice to newbies is simple. First, decide what you want the firearm for.
Do you want to collect/display without ever shooting it, or do you want to collect/display/shoot it, or do you just want it to participate in the "fun shoots" for milsurps at your local club?
Are you looking for a milsurp that cheap surplus ammo is still available, are you going to hand load, or purchase commercial ammo? None of the options are cheap anymore.
So it all boils down to which level you're going to participate in and that is often limited by what you can afford.
When I started, close to sixty years ago, I had some very unique opportunities which allowed me to cherry-pick from thousands of each type and purchase at distributor cost.
Most people don't have such opportunities.
My collection is now down to filling one safe. My gun room is mostly empty. That's OK, now it's "someone else's" turn to take care of the gems I sold off over the past ten years.
Just purchase what you can afford. If you're holding out for the "holy grail" at dirt cheap prices, scour the "yard sales" You might get lucky but don't hold your breath.
Gun shows are not YARD SALES.
Don't get the two confused. You will be disappointed.
The big thing about collecting is that there are different wants and needs for every individual collector.
I know a fellow, now deceased, who collected P38s and P08s. They had to be mint, unissued or he considered them to be junk.
As for which grade of rifle shoots better?
It works this way. Some rifles shoot better than others, that's life. I've had the opportunity to take ten new in-wrap Mauser 98s out of the crate, clean them and shoot them with period-correct, issue ammunition. Same ole, same ole. Some of them shot very well, others shot acceptably within the specified requirement.
I've seen FTRed rifles do exactly the same thing.
This is what it all boils down to.
Most, not all of the unissued and FTRed stuff is long gone. There may be some squirreled away in government storage facilities, but they're almost impossible to find, let alone get them out of government control.
That means what's in civilian hands is all there is and there won't be any more coming.
Old farts, such as myself are getting long in the tooth and are starting to sell off their collections.
I noticed this at the Chilliwack show last week. There were close to 600 tables. It's now the largest show in Canada.
At least a third of the tables were covered with milsurp rifles, including muzzle loaders, early black powder cartridge types, just about everything still legal to sell that saw service beyond the Viet Nam War.
hundreds of Mausers, Lee Enfields, Sniders, Springfields, SKSs, Garands, etc.
Ammo was available but expensive.
There were dozens of newbies, fondling everything and lamenting the prices.
They had to be careful, lots of the firearms on those tables were not FTRed by any government armory. Many are put together with surplus parts.
Don't get me wrong, for the most part, they're very well done and it's pretty easy to tell what they are. Many are beautiful and a lot of care and time has gone into them. Some??????????
Most of the put togethers, were selling anywhere from $800 to $1100, depending on the condition. Anything original or gone through an arsenal FTR started at $1200 and went up from there.
My advice to newbies is simple. First, decide what you want the firearm for.
Do you want to collect/display without ever shooting it, or do you want to collect/display/shoot it, or do you just want it to participate in the "fun shoots" for milsurps at your local club?
Are you looking for a milsurp that cheap surplus ammo is still available, are you going to hand load, or purchase commercial ammo? None of the options are cheap anymore.
So it all boils down to which level you're going to participate in and that is often limited by what you can afford.
When I started, close to sixty years ago, I had some very unique opportunities which allowed me to cherry-pick from thousands of each type and purchase at distributor cost.
Most people don't have such opportunities.
My collection is now down to filling one safe. My gun room is mostly empty. That's OK, now it's "someone else's" turn to take care of the gems I sold off over the past ten years.
Just purchase what you can afford. If you're holding out for the "holy grail" at dirt cheap prices, scour the "yard sales" You might get lucky but don't hold your breath.
Gun shows are not YARD SALES.
Don't get the two confused. You will be disappointed.
Obviously you wouldn't shoot a weapon that fails headspace. If you take a 2 rifles, 1 matching and one not matching that both pass headspace they will shoot relatively the same. They will do what they are designed for, to shoot a man sized target at X distance.
Headspace and military rifles is an interesting topic.
Every Swedish M96 or M38 that I checked would accept a SAAMI NO GO. North American 6.5x55 is made to SAAMI spec.
Grossly excess headspace is not an issue if one handloads and prepares ammunition for the rifle.
Surplus rifle condition varies greatly. Rifles may be heavily used, shot a lot, battered but rarely fired, through to never issued. Before use, it is important to carefully inspect the thing and determine exactly what the situation is.
Every Swedish M96 or M38 that I checked would accept a SAAMI NO GO. North American 6.5x55 is made to SAAMI spec.
Grossly excess headspace is not an issue if one handloads and prepares ammunition for the rifle.
Surplus rifle condition varies greatly. Rifles may be heavily used, shot a lot, battered but rarely fired, through to never issued. Before use, it is important to carefully inspect the thing and determine exactly what the situation is.
- Location
- Western Manitoba
^ it gets worse - many Swede M96 and M38 will accept shims to go way past SAAMI maximum - some digging into it a few years ago, and the Swede Regimental "GO" gauges are longer than SAAMI maximum - somehow, the Swedes made that all work out for them, using their ammo. Apparently, many USA gunsmiths were very busy to redo headspace on brand-new-from-Sweden-Arsenal rifles that got imported into USA. Of course, is likely some merit to having SAAMI dimensioned chambers, if using SAAMI compliant ammo - but SAAMI did not exist until circa 1920's - 303 British, 30-06, 6.5x55, 8x57 JS had been in use decades before SAAMI came along - very hard to understand why SAAMI thought they had a "better" standard, then what had been in place 30 or forty years previous, in other countries. But, most of us check head space with a set of gauges that are made to SAAMI standards. To boot, I am not sure many militaries anywhere - even in USA - follow or feel bound by SAAMI standards - the militaries typically have their own standards for their rifles and their ammo and their purposes.
We’ll said…
I collect the WW2 German handguns (Lugers, P38s, PPKs, etc etc), I prefer all matching, but well worn finish wise. The pristine ones were never used, or used much anyway. Walk through a militaries vault now-adays, the rifles in an infantry units vaults are going to be much more worn than the rifles in a non-combat units vault. I do have some non-matching ones that I use as shooters though, I would never shoot my matching guns
The Swedes, Norwegians, Finns were very knowledgeable about what was safe and what wasn't when it came to feeding their rifles ammo.
When they're not reloading, other than maybe practice ammunition, firing a case "once" and discarding it from a chamber designed to be roomy, isn't a big deal.
As long as it shoots within specified accuracy parameters, all is well.
For hand loaders, it's only an issue with semi-auto firearms, because they often have to full length resize the cases to ensure reliable feeding and eliminate possible out-of-battery ignition.
I've got a few old Mausers/Lee Enfields with matching numbers on their barrels/bolts and receivers that have excessive headspace. Not much, only a few thou.
They left the factory that way because they were built under stressful conditions and the spec parameters were loosened. They do just fine on the range. Never had a case failure with milsurp ammo or later with handloads put together specifically for that rifle and sized appropriately. All of them shoot acceptably.
I've also got a couple of "custom" barrel bolt action rifles with chambers that were cut a few thou deep and the bolt will close on a "no go" gauge.
Sloppy work, Yes. Is it dangerous? No.
Would it be a dangerous condition with factory ammo that's going to be discarded? NO.
I knew about the condition when I bought the rifles, so it was expected and once the cases were fireformed to the chamber, headspace was perfect, for those cases, in those rifles. They shoot better than I can hold, so why fix something that isn't broken?
Some people just think it all has to be perfect to work, If that were the case, everything would be ten times more expensive and very little would get accomplished.
While some of what you're saying is true, I take exception to the statement that all numbers matching rifles are a rarity, and accepting clapped out force matched frankinrifles is an acceptable practice...it isn't. They are less than. The prices they get reflect that. Excellent examples are available for sale, they're not in museums...you just have to pay.
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Outside finish wear I meant on their rifles. I have been in many vaults and seen it all, some places you'd have to dust the C7s off to get a good look at them. Guns at the schools are always and will always be beat to crap (both finish and part wear).
Also, you can nearly always tell the difference between a factory stamping and a reapplied techs stamp. Especially when its stamped on a Friday afternoon haha
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I tend to agree with the OP that only very seldom can one truly know that the all matching numbers gun is as it came from the factory. The only gun I have that I'm certain is unfired and all matching is a Mosin M44 remake. In 2021 a small production run was done in Russia, 5 of which came to Canada through Westrifle - I got one of those. There we a few Polish M44's that came in about 10 years ago, they were in original grease, all matching and appeared unfired so likely that one's OK too. BUT - other than as a collector piece, what really matters is the condition of the gun. Good bore, nice tight action, compliant headspace, no rust under the wood - then matching is a bonus is the gun was bought to shoot. You're going to add dings and scratches when you take it out, you're going to put normal wear into the barrel and mechanical parts. Buy what speaks to you, be safe and make sure its OK to shoot then enjoy it.
