Tips for precision shooting a black rifle.

surfclod

surfclod

CGN frequent flyer
Rating - 100%
46   0   0
Location
S.E Saskatchewan
Just got my first black rifle, excited to get out this weekend and shoot it for the first time. (H&K SL8)

From my observations it seems most black rifle shooters like to put on a red dot and bang plates at 50 meters in simulated tactical scenarios. Which I'm sure is a lot of fun in its own right but not my style.

I want to develop a varmint load and be able to plug gophers (and maybe coyotes) out to 500 meters.


My previous experience has been with bolt guns (last varmint gun was a 204 Ruger printing 3" groups at 500 yards).

Am hoping for some guidance on....
  • Barrel cleaning procedures. (No more Dewey rod and bore guide from the breech end, do I go Bore Snake or clean from muzzle?)
  • Will WipeOut (or other foaming products) work or wreak havoc with piston system
  • How to develop & tune a load that delivers maximum accuracy yet cycles and feeds reliably.
  • Will last shot (bolt hold open feature) effect POI as compared to the POI when a fresh cartridge is chambered after firing?
  • Barrel harmonics? Can you "free float" a barrel with a gas port, or tune it in any way?
  • Ought I consider crimping the bullets? Will feeding from a magazine effect OAL of the round from its "loaded" dimension to actual "as fired" length?
  • Should I run my bolt and carrier assembly "well lubed" or "dry"? Or run "well lubed" for how many rounds as part of a break in period?
  • I install pillars & bed my bolt guns, is there anything similar to be done with a black rifle?

Going to get the scope dialed in this weekend, maybe bang off 20 rounds of factory ammo. Then begin load development.

Would appreciate any advice or links to articles of guys precision shooting a black rifle.
 
Yes you can free float the barrel, and as far as I recall the G36 (SL8) is already free floated. Just avoid using anything that'll press on the barrel and you're clear.

Last shot won't affect POI as the bolt is still moving rearward as the bullet has already left the barrel.

Run wet with CLP in warm weather, use graphite lube in cold weather.

There's no bedding I'm familiar with in an SL8, but maybe somebody familiar can chime in.
 
I've seen some luck be had single loading rather than feeding from the mag.

In my experience fanatical cleaning doesn't really pay off. Use a good rod and clean from muzzle IMO.
 
The SL-8 is one of the most accurate out of the box black rifles out there but still about a 1MOA rifle. Doubt it will match your Ruger with a 3” at 500yd group. Bolt actions still rule for reaching out really far.

Switching out barrels and custom tuning a HK may be cost prohibitive for a vermint gun. Just IMO.
 
NEVER, EVER clean a rifle bore (or any bore for that matter) from the Muzzle end - that is a sure way to ruin your target crown because there is no way you can avoid rubbing your cleaning rod against one side of the crown or another. The problem and damage are made worse if you use a sectioned cleaning rod or an uncoated steel rod. The only exceptions to th8s rule are the M1 Garand, M14 and other rifles where access to the line of the bore is blocked by the Receiver. In that case, you should use a brush on a pull-through to do uni-directional scrubbing from Chamber to muzzle.

Always clean any bore from the Chamber end and only the Chamber end. It is fine to brush a bore in both directions so long as you do not change direction while the brush is still in the bore. Use a bronze brush, NEVER stainless steel. It is NOT OK to remove debris from the barrel by running a dry wipe back and forth, as you will simply embed dirt in the micro divots found in the lands and grooves. Always wipe debris from a dirty barrel in one direction only - from the chamber to the muzzle in the direction of bullet travel.

The biggest single trick to accurately shooting a gas gun is (in my view) to properly "drive" the firearm. You must grasp the rifle firmly, but without the degree of tension that causes vibration. The buttstock must be firmly planted in the shoulder pocket and you must "load" the bipod by pressing formward into the rifle just shy of the bipod feet slipping. Incidentally, this is why some folks like pointy spikes for their bipod feet. But I digress. "Driving" the firearm implies forceful handling without compromising the other elements of a precision shot - the proper firing position, sight picture, breathing, trigger control, follow-through, and so on. At least that is how it was explained to me. It seems to work with my LMT Modular Weapon System in .308 and 6.8 CM....
 
Last edited:
Dont use graphite. Or clp for that matter. There are better lubricants out there.

Sl8 are free floated out of the gate. If anything harms your gun your manual will tell you.

The barrel twist is 1:7. It likes heavier bullets.

Dont clean from muzzle end.

You have a great gun. Enjoy
 
mSEeOBU


150 ft with my red dot. Ruger AR556 MPR with the cheapie American Eagle 5.56 55gr.

As for cleaning I use a bore snake from the chamber through the muzzle.

Cheers,
EZTRGT
Kyle
 
surfclod said:
Just got my first black rifle, excited to get out this weekend and shoot it for the first time. (H&K SL8)

From my observations it seems most black rifle shooters like to put on a red dot and bang plates at 50 meters in simulated tactical scenarios. Which I'm sure is a lot of fun in its own right but not my style.

I want to develop a varmint load and be able to plug gophers (and maybe coyotes) out to 500 meters.


My previous experience has been with bolt guns (last varmint gun was a 204 Ruger printing 3" groups at 500 yards).

Am hoping for some guidance on....
  • Barrel cleaning procedures. (No more Dewey rod and bore guide from the breech end, do I go Bore Snake or clean from muzzle?)
  • Will WipeOut (or other foaming products) work or wreak havoc with piston system
  • How to develop & tune a load that delivers maximum accuracy yet cycles and feeds reliably.
  • Will last shot (bolt hold open feature) effect POI as compared to the POI when a fresh cartridge is chambered after firing?
  • Barrel harmonics? Can you "free float" a barrel with a gas port, or tune it in any way?
  • Ought I consider crimping the bullets? Will feeding from a magazine effect OAL of the round from its "loaded" dimension to actual "as fired" length?
  • Should I run my bolt and carrier assembly "well lubed" or "dry"? Or run "well lubed" for how many rounds as part of a break in period?
  • I install pillars & bed my bolt guns, is there anything similar to be done with a black rifle?

Going to get the scope dialed in this weekend, maybe bang off 20 rounds of factory ammo. Then begin load development.

Would appreciate any advice or links to articles of guys precision shooting a black rifle.
Click to expand...

So ill do my best here.
Barrel cleaning.
As mentioned chamber end only. Bokesnakes have zero place near any precision rifles of any type. Far to easy to remove an edge off the crown.
Wipeout foaming bore cleaner is all i use. No brushes. Put it in and stand the upper up to drain. Repeat until no more blue/copper comes out if you are stripping it to the bones. If you ARE stripping it be prepared to rezero. A lot. I had one that went 2 service rifle seasons without pulling the bore. It started opening up so i stripped it and upon rezero it was 8ft high at 100m. Witnessed. I was shocked.
Cleaning the bore otherwise is not really smart if you are looking for accuracy. I ONLY ever pull the bore if it isnt shooting like i think it should. Clean the bolt and upper etc...but the bore i leave. Ive easily gone 500-700rds before pulling it.
Wipeout should have no effect on a piston.
Break in is more an effect of the barrels. Good barrels need minimal to zero break in although they do seem to settle down at 150-200 rds. ####ty barrels not so much.
Developing a load should be no different than any other gun with the exception that you will be limited to mag length for seating depth. Pick a depth that works with your mags and run all your charge weights at that depth. Usually i try to make it as long as possible in the mag. Pick the one that works best. Probably still a good idea to measure and see where exactly you are in relation to the lands so that if you dont find a charge that works you can play with depth a bit. What i will tell you is that you need more that 2-3 thou worth of neck tension(not going to tell you how much) because when the bolt drives the rd into the chamber it does 1 thing for sure and possibley 2 thing. First of it DOES headspace the case a bit. You can try it yourself by taking a case and measuring off the shoulder. Then let the bolt slam it home and re measure. It will bump it 2-3 thou. So personally i dont get too bent out of shape finding the exact shoulder bump. Rifle does some work for you here.
Secondly if your neck tension isnt enough you projectiles WILL end up in the lands. Now that may be good.....or it may be bad. BUT what it isnt good for is consistency. And consistency leads to accuracy. To be the most consistent they need to ALL fire with the same amount of jump....or jam. Crimping is not needed IF you run enough next tension.
If you take care of this your shots sill be consistent from first to last. No difference.
Barrel harmonics is limited as its not truly free floated. Use a free float tube if you can but its not totally a game changer. I would be far more concerned shooting off a bipod. No matter what its attached to it WILL change your POI. Free float tubes are less BUT if you are preloading your bipod you will have a shift. Torque on the barrel nut is bad. If you truly want to keep things as accurate as you want you should shoot it off the magazine with nothing touching fhe forend including your hands. Definitely NOT a sling.
As far as lube goes i run minimal lube. It goes on the bolt where it touches the carrier, and on the bottom of the carrier. Never on the bolt face or in the lugs or chamber.
Pillars or bedding arent a thing with ARs as the lower has pretty much zero effect on accuracy. Its simply the trigger mech/mag holder. All the accuracy is located in the upper. Three things effect accuracy. Barrel. Ammo. Optic.
Get all 3 going and you should expect to have an easily sub MOA gun.
Lastly and possibly most importantly....make sure your expecations are reasonable. These are not sniper rifles. If you are looking for one hole accuracy you will likely be disappointed. 1/2 moa rifles are possible but it takes work. People claiming much less that 1/2 MOA average are full of it. When i was shooting on the CF national team and was going through work up in Gagetown before heading over to shoot at Bisley, we had the top 16 rifle shooters in the entire Canadian forces. The average group at 100m was 1 MOA to 1.5 MOA. Now mind you that was issued guns and ammo BUT your expectations need to be realistic.
Hope this helps!
Ryan
 
Longshot said:
So ill do my best here.
Barrel cleaning.
As mentioned chamber end only. Bokesnakes have zero place near any precision rifles of any type. Far to easy to remove an edge off the crown.
Wipeout foaming bore cleaner is all i use. No brushes....................

..........................The average group at 100m was 1 MOA to 1.5 MOA. Now mind you that was issued guns and ammo BUT your expectations need to be realistic.
Hope this helps!
Ryan
Click to expand...

Thanks for the advice.

Shooting a semi-auto is definitely a different game than what I am used to.

I got it out a couple wknds back and to be completely honest I was a little bit disappointed with the SL8's accuracy. After zeroing the scope I got groups of 1.5 to 2.25 MOA with 3 types of factory ammo. I didn't expect much from the Winchester White Box, but the other two were decent loads (Black Hills and Hornady Match) that I hoped would deliver MOA.

Oddly enough the 36 gr bullet in the Black Hill load was the 1.5 MOA group (.75" for 4 rounds) which I didn't expect with the 1-7 twist barrel. I cleaned it with Wipe-Out and my Dewey rod when I got home. Removed the rear stock & trigger group, not convenient in the field but from what you say, its not likely needed very often.

Have been prepping brass over the holidays so hope to begin some load development before going back to work. Ideally I'm hoping for a load that will work equally well in both my bolt gun and the SL8, but if I need a specific load for each that's fine.

For now I reckon what I need is more trigger time with the SL8. Learn the trigger and how to get a consistent cheek weld (might need to fabricate a spacer).

Lots of fun ahead.
 
surfclod said:
Thanks for the advice.

Shooting a semi-auto is definitely a different game than what I am used to.

I got it out a couple wknds back and to be completely honest I was a little bit disappointed with the SL8's accuracy. After zeroing the scope I got groups of 1.5 to 2.25 MOA with 3 types of factory ammo. I didn't expect much from the Winchester White Box, but the other two were decent loads (Black Hills and Hornady Match) that I hoped would deliver MOA.

Oddly enough the 36 gr bullet in the Black Hill load was the 1.5 MOA group (.75" for 4 rounds) which I didn't expect with the 1-7 twist barrel. I cleaned it with Wipe-Out and my Dewey rod when I got home. Removed the rear stock & trigger group, not convenient in the field but from what you say, its not likely needed very often.

Have been prepping brass over the holidays so hope to begin some load development before going back to work. Ideally I'm hoping for a load that will work equally well in both my bolt gun and the SL8, but if I need a specific load for each that's fine.

For now I reckon what I need is more trigger time with the SL8. Learn the trigger and how to get a consistent cheek weld (might need to fabricate a spacer).

Lots of fun ahead.
Click to expand...

1:7 twist prefers heavier bullets. I'm surprised 36 gr stabilized as well as it did. It prefers something heavier in the 60-77grain range.
 
While the G36/SL8 is highly regarded for its accuracy potential, that height over bore will take some getting used to. Lower HOB is one of the most distinct advantages DI gas guns have over all the rest, all these piston guns are high, higher, and in the case of the G36/SL8 one of the highest HOB's.
 
I've owned three SL8-4 rifles over the years.

Never clean from the muzzle end, don't be lazy. The rifle is easy to strip so take it apart every few hundred rounds to give it a clean.

I use wipe-out for all my barrels. Just blow it out of the gas system before you put it back together.

Not sure why someone mentioned re-zero after cleaning. The upper and the scope do not need to be separated and I never had any issues with having to re-zero after taking it apart.

The SL8 is the only semi auto 223 I've owned that would honestly shoot 1 moa or better consistently out of the box. My handload was a 60gr Nosler over CFE223, that load shot 1 moa or better through 4 different SL8 rifles. My rifles also loved the Black Hills MK262 77gr match ammo.
These have a Lothar Walther barrel, you won't find much better than that so be nice to it.

The SL8 magazine is way better than a STANAG magazine so I would skip the magwell conversions just so you can run pistol mags. This is a precision semi and doesn't need high capacity for target and varmint shooting. You don't want to get the barrel smoking hot. You don't need followup shots when you hit the first one :)


Surfclod, if you're only getting 2-3 moa with quality ammo there is either something wrong with your equipment or it's you. As I said, I've owned three and know a few other owners and all shoot 1 moa or better with quality ammo.
Quality proven optic, quality rings, scope mounted as low as possible without contacting the rifle, quality ammo, and a quality rest to remove human error from the equation and it should be performing.


onetwentyish said:
While the G36/SL8 is highly regarded for its accuracy potential, that height over bore will take some getting used to. Lower HOB is one of the most distinct advantages DI gas guns have over all the rest, all these piston guns are high, higher, and in the case of the G36/SL8 one of the highest HOB's.
Click to expand...

Makes zero difference when shooting at a fixed distance as he is for sighting in and load testing. It's very easy to compensate for if you take the time to build your drop charts before you're in the field with a coyote in the crosshairs.

The only configuration I had a hard time with the HOB was with the one I had with the G36 conversion, just couldn't get a cheekweld with a scope mounted. I only owned that one a few weeks. The one with the HERA lower and ACR folder was my favorite. I'd buy another set up like that if the right deal came along.
 
Last edited:
Interesting that you are using 36 grain bullets in a 1:7 twist. That's like running leaded fuel in a top fuel dragster.

I'm actually surprised the rotational forces did not cause the light bullets to self destruct in flight... If you shoot a bunch of them I'll bet you will have it happen.

The 1:7 will work best in terms of accuracy with heavier bullets of 69 grains or more... Plus they will be especially more accurate for you at extended ranges. My ACR DMR likes 75 and 77 grainers... you might try those as well.
 
onetwentyish said:
Lower HOB is one of the most distinct advantages DI gas guns have over all the rest, all these piston guns are high, higher, and in the case of the G36/SL8 one of the highest HOB's.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry but...This has got to be the most highly propagated pile of none sense on the internet. Anyone who repeats it must have surely flunked geometry.

The bullet drops from the moment it leaves the muzzle and you need to know how to compensate for that drop regardless of the HOB. Yes HOB affects your trajectory compensation data but it does not affect the trajectory path in any way.

In fact a higher HOB improves your point blank range if you zero the rifle so the POI is never above the line of sight. The bullet is either on its way up toward the line of sight or dropping away from it. You can aim for the top of the kill zone and hit it clean further with a higher scope mount.
 
Last edited:
r34skyline said:
Cr5 where did you get info the sl8 has lothar walther barrels?
Click to expand...

I'm sure I read it years ago. Not sure where and I've been searching for an hour and can't find anything other than it's cold hammer forged.

Maple57 said:
I'm sorry but...This has got to be the most highly propagated pile of none sense on the internet. Anyone who repeats it must have surely flunked geometry.

The bullet drops from the moment it leaves the muzzle and you need to know how to compensate for that drop regardless of the HOB. Yes HOB affects your trajectory compensation data but it does not affect the trajectory path in any way.

In fact a higher HOB improves your point blank range if you zero the rifle so the POI is never above the line of sight. The bullet is either on its way up toward the line of sight or dropping away from it. You can aim for the top of the kill zone and hit it clean further with a higher scope mount.
Click to expand...

Agreed, plus it's not a piston vs DI issue as he mentions that creates the height over bore "problem". I've owned DI and piston AR's and there is no difference in HOB. It's the design of the SL8 specifically that is the issue and in the real world, as you said, it's a lot less of an issue than the internet warriors make it out to be.
It's very easy to compensate for and if you are familiar with your rifle you don't even need to think about it when making your shots.


EDIT:
After more searching and PMing one of the more knowledgeable HK guys on the forum I've found that they are french steel and HK builds them in house.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1cM7aqKrK7F0X1MrtkfGoefjYAB4blt5p/view
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom