Titegroup loads for 455 Webley?

[H Wally]

I'd like to try this "new" hodgdon Titegroup powder in my 455. Wondering if anyone out there has tried loads in their guns or found any reloading data for this powder? I don't have sufficient experience/confidence to establish a good starting load based on data from powders with similar burn rates.

Only other way I can think of getting data is to stick to the conservative side of trail boss loads, but really I'd just be basing that off a couple of burn rate charts that list trail boss as being similar.... I'd rather be able to discuss the loads.

 

[Colin]

None that I can find and I don't recommend it, the difference between light and heavy load will be very small, try Unique or trail boss.

 

[H Wally]

I get that powder weights are important, hence why I'm asking.

However, the the reason I asked is because I'm interested in trying titegroup. Using another powder defeats the point of asking the question. The usual proviso of "do at your own risk, don't push antiques hard, pay close attention to loading" applies, but what's the point of having access to a new purpose made powder if no one will try it

I should add - been trying some loads in 44 russian and am quite impressed, hence why I'd like to try it in my 455.

 

[maliboy67]

Hodgdon has an excellent database on their website. I have used titegroup for 40 S&W. It is a fast burning powder that produces fast high pressure spikes. Very well suited to all high pressure pistol rounds like 9mm and 40.

 

[maliboy67]

I see hodgdon doesn't list the 455 Webley.

 

[H Wally]

Hodgdon has an excellent database on their website. I have used titegroup for 40 S&W. It is a fast burning powder that produces fast high pressure spikes. Very well suited to all high pressure pistol rounds like 9mm and 40.

Unfortunately they don't have 455 on their list. I'd been hoping to use a lighter load and take advantage of a sharp spike in pressure that would still be within tolerances to bump out the base on the 455 boolit. I noticed that with light loads I'm getting better groups than with my other load with trail boss in 44 russian. I don't have a chroneograph so can't tell you how fast each load was going, but based on felt recoil, the titegroup shot better than trailboss in light loads in that gun. I am guessing that's because the titegroup bumped up the bullet a bit better? A solution to using trailboss would be to up the load, but I'd rather leave the loads as light as is safe.

Of course, pressure spikes are a whole other kettle of fish, hence why I'm asking if anyone has any experience here.

P.S. Colin - sorry if I was snappy in my second post in the thread. Noticed it could have been interpretted that way.

 

[dingus]

Unfortunately they don't have 455 on their list. I'd been hoping to use a lighter load and take advantage of a sharp spike in pressure that would still be within tolerances to bump out the base on the 455 boolit. I noticed that with light loads I'm getting better groups than with my other load with trail boss in 44 russian. I don't have a chroneograph so can't tell you how fast each load was going, but based on felt recoil, the titegroup shot better than trailboss in light loads in that gun. I am guessing that's because the titegroup bumped up the bullet a bit better? A solution to using trailboss would be to up the load, but I'd rather leave the loads as light as is safe.

Of course, pressure spikes are a whole other kettle of fish, hence why I'm asking if anyone has any experience here.

P.S. Colin - sorry if I was snappy in my second post in the thread. Noticed it could have been interpretted that way.

Not Me but im intrested in new ideas loads ect.
Try a simlar load to the 44 russian then you should have a good starting point i use 5 grs of unique in the 44 R and the 455 so as long as your tightgroup loads wasnt supper hot in the 44 then try it in the 455 then work up abit.
Keep in mind if the primers start to flow your getting hot and if cases become hard to extract then back off to.

Just be carefull but i think its good your trying new things.
Keep in mind Trail boss when loaded higher than the specs gets hot fast, so i have read.

 

[maliboy67]

I've read on several occasions that titegroup has a very similar burn rate as bullseye. It is slightly slower in fact. I have found load data for the 455 using bullseye, an option would be to start with a light bullseye load and work up a bit and see how it works out. I know with titegroup if you are using reasonable loads it burns very clean and a pound goes a long way. It works great for trap and skeet loads as well. Good luck, if I find any data in my wanderings in cyberspace I'll post a link.

 

[H Wally]

Not Me but im intrested in new ideas loads ect.
Try a simlar load to the 44 russian then you should have a good starting point i use 5 grs of unique in the 44 R and the 455 so as long as your tightgroup loads wasnt supper hot in the 44 then try it in the 455 then work up abit.
Keep in mind if the primers start to flow your getting hot and if cases become hard to extract then back off to.

Just be carefull but i think its good your trying new things.
Keep in mind Trail boss when loaded higher than the specs gets hot fast, so i have read.

For the 44 russian I followed hodgdon's website data for the most part. Where it's got me confused is that it shows titegroup as generating lower pressure but higher velocity than trailboss at starting loads:

44 RUSSIAN - 200Gr Boolit

IMR Trail Boss--------------------------Hodgdon Titegroup
Start load - 3.0 gr----------------------Start load - 3.5 gr
Velocity - 647 fps----------------------Velocity - 738 fps,
Pressure - 7,900 CUP-------------------Pressure - 5,100 CUP

IF these figures are correct and I'm not missing something, then this powder should be fine for antiques as long as it isn't overloaded, like most powders. My general idea for all my cartridges is to keep pressures as low as possible while still allowing the boolit expand into the bore and reach the target. Since these are very manageable loads for 44 russian that shoot well, but have little recoil and make little noise, I'm thinking it might be safe to try in the webley using my current loading (Which is pretty light overall, for both the 44 russian and I suspect, the 455 webley).

I've read on several occasions that titegroup has a very similar burn rate as bullseye. It is slightly slower in fact. I have found load data for the 455 using bullseye, an option would be to start with a light bullseye load and work up a bit and see how it works out. I know with titegroup if you are using reasonable loads it burns very clean and a pound goes a long way. It works great for trap and skeet loads as well. Good luck, if I find any data in my wanderings in cyberspace I'll post a link.

Much obliged - I'll post my findings here as well.

Agreed on titegroup burning nicely too - far more nicely than trail boss at low pressures for me (though I have seen them burn clean... just not with me)


Now, I know I'm just pulling numbers off the web, but it does certainly look like Bullseye has similar properties. Handloads.com suggests starting with 3.4gr of Bullseye behind a 265 HBRN.
http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/d...&Weight=265&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=

Another website from australia doesn't have loads for the 265 boolit, but has one for 250gr boolits, so relatively close.
It suggests 2.8gr of bullseye for starting and 3.8 as max, so another good option.
http://shootingnews.com.au/Reloading/pistol reload/Reloading PISTOL 455 WEBLEY MK2.php

Pressure is still something I'm thinking over, but blackpowder cartridges pushed their boolits faster than many of these loads, so it "should" be within tolerances as long as the pressure spikes aren't way out of wack with blackpowder.




I suspect I may go with my 44 Russian starting load of titegroup as long as it doesn't leave too much space in the case. The fact that bullseye is said to be similar pressure, and starting data for it in 455 is almost identical to my load for tite group suggests that it acts similarly. Of course, I'll be watching closely for signs of over pressure.


For what it's worth, this chart lists Trail Boss, Titegroup and Bullseye as all being in the same zone pressure wise. Looks to be pretty accurate, but I'm not overly inclined to blindly trust it outright without knowing who made it

 

[swampdog]

As already mentioned, Trail Boss, Tite Group, and Bullseye all are close together on that chart. But all are near the Fast Burning end of the spectrum. Correct me if I'm wrong (and I well may be), but doesn't fast burning powder generate more pressure than slow burning powder? Isn't that the reason why many recommend using slow burning black powder or other slow burning powders?

 

[jethunter]

45acp, 230 gr HDy, 4.4 gr Titegroup = 744 fps @ 15,000 CUP
45acp, 230 gr HDy, 4.8 gr Titegroup = 818 fps @ 16,700 CUP

Considering that the .455MKII case is quite a bit smaller than the .45acp and that you are probably using a heavier bullet and that about 12K psi is max on the .455 - then you are going to be looking at somewhere in the neighbourhood of 2.5-3.0 gr titegroup in the .455 MKII case. And that's a ROUGH guess, so use it as a point of reference and not as a proven gospel truth...

 

[Colin]

Unfortunately they don't have 455 on their list. I'd been hoping to use a lighter load and take advantage of a sharp spike in pressure that would still be within tolerances to bump out the base on the 455 boolit. I noticed that with light loads I'm getting better groups than with my other load with trail boss in 44 russian. I don't have a chroneograph so can't tell you how fast each load was going, but based on felt recoil, the titegroup shot better than trailboss in light loads in that gun. I am guessing that's because the titegroup bumped up the bullet a bit better? A solution to using trailboss would be to up the load, but I'd rather leave the loads as light as is safe.

Of course, pressure spikes are a whole other kettle of fish, hence why I'm asking if anyone has any experience here.

P.S. Colin - sorry if I was snappy in my second post in the thread. Noticed it could have been interpretted that way.

No offense taken, but having a Webley blow up would make me cry.

You clearly know what you are talking about and understand the issues, I really like Titegroup and use it in my 9mm, 40cal and 45acp, but use unique in my .455, 357Sig and shotgun, keeps the number of powders needed down.