to Ackley Improve or not

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razorbeck said:
the added complications to just gain 100 to 140 fps hardly seems worthwhile to me, couldn't you just over pressure a regular 223?
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Not sure what the added complications are that you mention? If you mean stuffing a bullet over a max load of powder and blowing the case out, I'm not seeing a downside. Nobody ever got to be better at shooting by not shooting.....

Gatehouse said:
The best (only?) reason I see for AI is for brass life. Loaded to the same pressure, the velocity gains on most AIs are fairly marginal.

.223 brass is so plentiful and so cheap, I couldn't see ever making an AI
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True on both counts, velocity gains at like pressures are minimal. For me however, not having pressure testing equipment, I simply have to go with seeing how long I get useable life out of brass, and what kind of velocity numbers I get. And with both 223AI that I have, I'm getting some velocity gains and well into double digit reloads on rem/win/lapua brass.

That said, both of the improved versions that I have I bought that way.
 
I agree with those who say don't bother. It may well have some "cool" factor, but I quit spending hard earned money on "cool" in grade 9. "Real" is far more important than "cool" and there is very little real advantage to improving the .223.
 
The 140 fps gain occurs when the rifle is loaded and shot in Fantasyland but not in the real world. Load the same bullet to the same pressure and you can probably see a gain of 25 fps. Because the 223 case is already pretty straight, with little taper, the only real change is in shoulder angle and this just doesn't add enough capacity to change performance any. I have seen some feeding glitches in rifles chambered for the 223 AI but, with many 223's being single-loaded, this may not be a real issue. Also, these glitches were curable without too much effort. When it was time to re-barrel a 222 I have, I decided to go with the 223 and did not even consider the AI although I had the reamer and dies on hand.
 
Lots of guys saying don't do it, and then not giving reasons why?
Leeper, or course has a point, about loading to same pressures, and getting similar velocities, but that doesn't seem to stop the 30-06 crowd from pushing the limits to try and make 300 Win Mag velocities.
If a fella was so inclined, then a 223AI chamber, with Lapua brass, would provide significant gains in velocity, with increased pressure of course, with zero side effects. I can't really see a down side, but hey, doing something different obviously isn't for everyone.

I would add that the fellas over at 6BR hardly operate in Fantasyland...some here however, have defiantly made it their SOP.

Maybe actually try if before offering opinions as facts, again?

R.
 
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Speed increase (reported)of 100-140 fps, longer brass life with less work, can use regular 223 loaded ammo to fire form....what are the disadvantages?
 
I have AI'd many times... and regretted it every time... and then convince myself that it is a good idea again... but of course it is not. The initial expense, fire-forming and reduced resale value are not worth the minimal gains in velocity and real or perceived improved brass life. I am now of the opinion that rather than going the AI route, simply step-up to a cartridge that offers the desired performance level in its standard configuration... rather than AI'ing a .223, get a .22/250. Rather than AI'ing a Roberts, get a .25/06. Rather than AI'ing a 7X57, get a .280 etc... etc... etc...
 
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hoytcanon said:
I have AI'd many times... and regretted it every time... and then convince myself that it is a good idea again... but of course it is not. The initial expense, fire-forming and reduced resale value are not worth the minimal gains in velocity and real or perceived improved brass life. I am now of the opinion that rather than going the AI route, simply step-up to a cartridge that offers the desired performance level in its standard configuration... rather than AI'ing a .223, get a .22/250. Rather than AI'ing a Roberts, get a .25/06. Rather than 7X57, get a .280 etc... etc... etc...
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For Rman, those are all the reasons that I think AI is just not worth it.

Have you ever tried to sell an AI chambered rifle? I get good brass life by custom sizing all my brass to the chambers they use. All the "advantages" of AI cartridges can be gained by smart loading of "standard" cartridges that provide the desired performance. Maybe pay attention to facts rather than thinking that "doing something different" is smart just because you think different is some sort of achievement.
 
I have a 22-250 AI, and while Hoyt makes some good points, I got a deal on a custom build that I will never sell. Which leads me to agree with him. Don't do it unless you getting a a good deal on a rifle, dies and brass.

But man, I love that rifle!
 
rral22 said:
For Rman, those are all the reasons that I think AI is just not worth it.

Have you ever tried to sell an AI chambered rifle? I get good brass life by custom sizing all my brass to the chambers they use. All the "advantages" of AI cartridges can be gained by smart loading of "standard" cartridges that provide the desired performance. Maybe pay attention to facts rather than thinking that "doing something different" is smart just because you think different is some sort of achievement.
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I don't build my rifles to sell, I build them to use. Very rare that I would actually considering selling a rifle, unless it falls under the collection category. I'm still very unclear as to what these disadvantages are? I have several rifles in both hunting and target set ups, and haven't found any as of yet.
Considering that I actually base my facts on, well, facts, and have the luxury of not having to guess, I don't have that think that AI'ing certain cartridges is smart, as I already know it is. Different certainly isn't an achievement, but by many of the comments on this thread, it's fairly easy to tell who has actually tried to do something different from those who have not. Perhaps that's where the achievement lies?
I also have very good news. What happens to work for me, certainly doesn't have to work for everyone, and anyone that feels that I am advocating that, is very mistaken.
Hoyt has a fine collection of rifles, and his findings are based on his experiences, certainly not mine. It all depends on how one wishes to accomplish something, or not accomplish anything at all.
Chasing calibres and chambering's for bits of performance here and there, is what a lot of us find interesting, while some do not.

R.
 
Rman said:
I don't build my rifles to sell, I build them to use. Very rare that I would actually considering selling a rifle, unless it falls under the collection category. I'm still very unclear as to what these disadvantages are? I have several rifles in both hunting and target set ups, and haven't found any as of yet.
Considering that I actually base my facts on, well, facts, and have the luxury of not having to guess, I don't have that think that AI'ing certain cartridges is smart, as I already know it is. Different certainly isn't an achievement, but by many of the comments on this thread, it's fairly easy to tell who has actually tried to do something different from those who have not. Perhaps that's where the achievement lies?
I also have very good news. What happens to work for me, certainly doesn't have to work for everyone, and anyone that feels that I am advocating that, is very mistaken.
Hoyt has a fine collection of rifles, and his findings are based on his experiences, certainly not mine. It all depends on how one wishes to accomplish something, or not accomplish anything at all.
Chasing calibres and chambering's for bits of performance here and there, is what a lot of us find interesting, while some do not.

R.
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Then chase away to your heart's content. It's your money and time. I think Hoyt quite clearly explained what he (and I)see as the disadvantages of the AI route, and if you are still "very unclear as to what the disadvantages are", re-read his post.

Chasing something that is actually easy to obtain simply by making different choices has never made sense to me, so I my advice to the OP is to not do it. That does not make me (or any of the others who have said the same thing) inexperienced, uninformed, or without the desire to "accomplish anything at all".
 
as far as the 223 ai goes, if you want to ahead. I have friends who have them there was a 100+ fps increase. it have been my experience over my chrony that a 22 in barrel 22-250 makes no sense. they need at least 24 inches to show any clear advantage over a 223. the 223ai and 223 do well with the 22 inch barrels, the 22250 more suited to the 24 and 26.

my own experience has shows the 22250 with 22 inch barrel has a 150 fps advantage over a 223 with 22 inch barrel both loaded hot. 24 inch 22250 vs 22 inch 223 was a 250 fps advantage, this I consider worthwhile. I assume a 26 inch would turn this into a 350 fps advantage.

the 22 inch 223 in this test was my own, and having put it up against a 26 inch barrel 223 there was about 90 fps difference. and I had to go to a faster powder(h4895 with 55 gr) to see this. the 26 inch barrel got best speeds with varget. varget in the 22 inch barrel was 150 fps slower.

be aware that the 223 ai does not feed well in some guns. I think a 223ai would be so close to a 22250 if both had 22 inch barrels it would be a wash.
 
The majority of modern cases gain very little in altering to an AI version.

Very tapered cases benefit the most... cases like the 30-30 Winchester, the .303 British, the .300 H & H...

I made my first wildcat in 1966 and have owned a few AI rifles over the years... I haven't owned one in about 35 years... I didn't find much difference in hunting and varmint performance ... not enough to keep me interested in the cost and labour...

As to the suggestion one simply loads to excessively high pressures to increase velocity... it can result in this...

243_BLOW_UP.jpg
 
prairie lover said:
as far as the 223 ai goes, if you want to ahead. I have friends who have them there was a 100+ fps increase. it have been my experience over my chrony that a 22 in barrel 22-250 makes no sense. they need at least 24 inches to show any clear advantage over a 223. the 223ai and 223 do well with the 22 inch barrels, the 22250 more suited to the 24 and 26.

my own experience has shows the 22250 with 22 inch barrel has a 150 fps advantage over a 223 with 22 inch barrel both loaded hot. 24 inch 22250 vs 22 inch 223 was a 250 fps advantage, this I consider worthwhile. I assume a 26 inch would turn this into a 350 fps advantage.

the 22 inch 223 in this test was my own, and having put it up against a 26 inch barrel 223 there was about 90 fps difference. and I had to go to a faster powder(h4895 with 55 gr) to see this. the 26 inch barrel got best speeds with varget.
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Wow... I don't even know where to start on this post...

To start with, if you aren't getting 400+ fps more out of the 22/250 over the 223 out of the same barrel length... I don't care if it is 20/22/24/26", you are seriously screwing something up.


Next you say that the .22/250 holds "no clear advantage" over the .223 in a 22" barrel, but then declare that advantage to be 150 fps... but you encourage the OP to chase his AI tail to net a 100 fps gain (I and others know you won't actually see an extra 100 fps).

Using your own faulty numbers, going the AI route doesn't make sense.
 
I would not potentially compromise feeding and go to the trouble and expense to end up with no meaningful gain. Don't get caught up in preoccupation with inconsequential increments.
 
rral22 said:
Then chase away to your heart's content. It's your money and time. I think Hoyt quite clearly explained what he (and I)see as the disadvantages of the AI route, and if you are still "very unclear as to what the disadvantages are", re-read his post.

Chasing something that is actually easy to obtain simply by making different choices has never made sense to me, so I my advice to the OP is to not do it. That does not make me (or any of the others who have said the same thing) inexperienced, uninformed, or without the desire to "accomplish anything at all".
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How any AI chambered rifled have you owned, and what, exactly were your findings with each one. I just want to clarify what it is that you are trying to say. As someone mentioned in a post above, if you are not seeing clear benefits, as far as increased performance, then obviously you are screwing something up?
Good thing we can all make choices that best suit what our own requirements are?

R.
 
tjhaile said:
I would not potentially compromise feeding and go to the trouble and expense to end up with no meaningful gain. Don't get caught up in preoccupation with inconsequential increments.
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Over 100 fps is inconsequential? Lots will make an adjustment of some kind for that improvement. If not, then why all of the dozens of 22 cals, that pretty much all do the same thing?

R.
 
guntech said:
The majority of modern cases gain very little in altering to an AI version.

Very tapered cases benefit the most... cases like the 30-30 Winchester, the .303 British, the .300 H & H...

I made my first wildcat in 1966 and have owned a few AI rifles over the years... I haven't owned one in about 35 years... I didn't find much difference in hunting and varmint performance ... not enough to keep me interested in the cost and labour...

As to the suggestion one simply loads to excessively high pressures to increase velocity... it can result in this...

243_BLOW_UP.jpg
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I would suggest that the result pictured had far more to do with stupidity, than it did with an AI chamber?

R.
 
Down the road when you come to the realization the AI wasn't all it was cracked up to be try selling a wildcat.....Harold
 
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