To all you Bubba haters

gerard488

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The rifles did not fight, the men who carried the rifle did the fighting. Some of the same men came home and bought the rifles that they were used to and used them to put meat on the table. The same men cut those rifles down or stripped the wood to make it lighter and because of that you collectors call him "Bubba" If it wern`t for "Bubba", your prized original original condition milsurp rifles would be near worthless.
For what it`s worth, here`s my opinion:
The rifles were used in 2 world wars and countless other conflicts, serving well in all of them
The soldiers carried the rifles and did the fighting, the unspeakable suffering, the killing and dying.
The veterans came home and cut their rifles and used them as tools, tools for a different job than they were intended for.
The Collectors? well, a lot of them look at or shoot their prized rifles in such different conditions and call anyone who dares to modify a military weapon by the derogatory name "Bubba". Well, some of the men who cut those guns fought and died for the right to do so. I guess they also fought to give you the right to collect military weapons. I respect collectors but I think you should give Bubba a break and appreciate the fact that he s really the one who made your collection so valuable.BTW here`s my "Bubba" P-14, I love it, shoots like a dream
 
I always thought 'Bubba' was more of a term reserved for the hack sporterizing jobs? Like this. (last post on page)

Not always, even nicer sporters can be considered Bubba's work. If they used a particularly rare model as the base, even more so.

As to the opine of the OP, I am sure that the brave souls who fought & died in those long ago battles never considered that one day all that would be left as witness to their sacrifices would be the arms they used, a many times revised for convenience history & the tattered remains of the freedom so hard won. A firearm in the same configuration as it was used in a great struggle can serve as a potent reminder of freedoms cost & talisman for those who do not regard such freedom lightly. A hunting rifle made from the bones of a milsurp, not so much.
 
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There is more interest and awareness of our History and Heritage today, and this not only applies to the Gun Collectors, but Collectors of almost anything. While they are interested in obtaining the best original specimens they can for their own collection, they seem to also interested in preserving items for future generations to enjoy.

Back in the 1950s and 1960s, there was a plethora of surplus firearms, but 50 years later, this vast supply had dried up. Many of these firearms were bought by people who sporterized them to suit their purposes, for hunting or recreation. During that time, there were only a small minority of Military Collectors at any of the Gun Shows.

To bring returning Servicemen into a debate is not quite a valid point. I grew up in that era, and many of these men only wanted to return to Civilian life, and would have thrown a rifle as far away as they could. Very, very few of them were interested in using or sporterizing military rifles.

I guess I am one of the "Bubba Haters" as you call them. If a previous military rifle has been cut down or modified where it is past the point of putting it back in original shape, then any further modifications is a moot point. However, when I see a scarce or rare item that should belong in a Museum and it was hacked up, surrendered to the Authorities who will destroy it, or made "Tactical", then I deplore those actions.
 
Not always, even nicer sporters can be considered Bubba's work. If they used a particularly rare model as the base, even more so.

As to the opine of the OP, I am sure that the brave souls who fought & died in those long ago battles never considered that one day all that would be left as witness to their sacrifices would be the arms they used, a many times revised for convenience history & the tattered remains of the freedom so hard won. A firearm in the same configuration as it was used in a great struggle can serve as a potent reminder of freedoms cost & talisman for those who do not regard such freedom lightly. A hunting rifle made from the bones of a milsurp, not so much.

DS, I fully understand where you're coming from but many of those receivers or even barreled actions you are speaking of, never saw military service or were ever intended for military service.
Many people have completely overlooked the fact that the military developed the actions and the commercial makers couldn't come up with anything as advanced or better. So rather than try to build a copy, or make something different, they just approached the factories producing the rifles and bought specific lots of actions, parts, barreled receivers etc to finish or refinish as fine sporters.

I have a lovely KAR 98 marked, Erfurt 1907 sporter that was never anything else in its life. It was made at a time when scopes were not widely available and extremely expensive. It was originally chambered in 9x57. Sometime, during the mid sixties, because of inavailability of ammunition and bullets, an old friend converted it to 257 Ackley Improved and replaced the European style stock with an American style stock that was more suitable to his needs, then he had it drilled and tapped for a new fangled scope in the late sixties as well. The old scope is long gone but I still have the specially made reloading die set. At this point, the rifle sits barren of bases, rings or scope. I haven't used it for a few years. It has a rather slow twist rate in the barrel and won't stabilize the heavier bullets. It will shoot 100grain flat base bullets into very small groups and knock White Tails as well as Black Bears down with aplomb. They don't seem to know that the bullets aren't heavy enough to do the job properly.

Is this rifle a Bubba??? Hardly IMHO but it's all in the eye of the beholder. We all have appreciation for different things and uses for different things.

As for the only thing left of the history of the battles the brave soldiers fought with these rifles and being the only remaining reminder of their sacrifices, that just isn't true. Many of those soldiers hated their rifles because they were heavy and just another chore to keep in good working order. Remember, we are talking about mostly conscripted soldiers here, not vollunteers. That certainly doesn't mean they didn't willingly go when they were called upon for their service but lets just say it wasn't their first choice.

Many of those same soldiers, hated the military configuration of the rifles they trained and fought with. They came to respect them though and trusted their capabilities. They bought them cheaply when they were made available to them and modified them to suit their needs or personalites.

For many of these rifles, they were modified by the ex soldiers that carried similar rifles. They certainly didn't do this to denigrate their history. They lived that history and in many cases, made it happen.

In many ways, the opposite is true. By taking these old battle implements and converting them to something useful in peacetime society, it showed a lot of respect for the rifles and their designs.

If it weren't for all of these cheap milsurps being offered between the wars and after WWII, we wouldn't be able to enjoy the same hunting heritage we do today. Many of those Bubbas put well suited, appropriate and affordable hunting rifles into the hands of those that just couldn't have afforded it any other way.

It wasn't until the early 1920s that the first milsurp rifles were made readily available to the general public. Yes, there were some of the obsolete single shot rifles available but not the modern repeaters. Even many of the stronger single shots were being sold overseas to third world governments for their militaries.

Bannerman's, Sears etc, all offered these firearms at what we would consider bargain basement prices.

They were cheap, even at the relative pricing of those days. That was the turning point for shooters across the nation. Acutally, in many cases around the world. Those relatively cheap firearms, took the sport of hunting as well as subsistance living and placed it at the disposal of the common plebes. This changed the face of shooting forever.

There are still some so called, self appointed elites that feel this isn't right. That has a lot to do with the anti movements today.
 
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Rifles already gone through the process may not be worth a restoration. If that's the case, congrads to the original poster! Nice rifle! But to destroy a nice collectors piece to have a hunting rifle today seems foolish & costly when there is a vast majority of superior hunting rifles a fraction of the cost of a custom job.
 
As Buffdog has stated above, these guns are reminders of the terrible things man kind is capable of. They are filled with history, and if you listen just right, they tell you stories when you hold them. I know it sounds crazy but it's so true.

BTW, to the OP your p14 is a very nice Sporter and I'm sure it shoots well but IM MY OPINION it is a quality hunting rifle at this point and is no longer a milsurp. I wouldn't call it a bubba but lots would. A bubba to me is usually when Jim Bob pulls out a grinder and a hacksaw to "make one dem dare hun in rifles". Also bubba'd milsurps in my experience scoped or not shoot worse not better.

But to each there own I guess. I don't like it but if someone wants to buy a pristine p14 for say $600, then put another $1000 into it to make a $300 hunting rifle that's their business not mine!

What I'm really getting at is they are original once and then when they're cut down, chopped and molested they are just another bubba'd rifle.
 
X2 on OP!

I love the folks that get on here, and cry "Oh the horror" about a rifle modified before they were born, that was carried in a war looong before they were born...
I then think of my Dad. A young fella when Berlin fell. He has memories of that time, and no desire to "celebrate" them. Hell, you have to really coax them out of him. Same with my [now deceased] grandparents...

When my Dad came to Canada, he bought a vz24. Had a scope added to it by a smith (not with JB weld) of fine repute. These rifles were cheap, and abundant. In many cases, modified (folksmith) by fellas who actually carried them in service. I doubt any of those 'ol boys really wanted to relive the glory of war...they did want deer, or moose and lopped a few pounds of the tool they used to get it.

Those that forget the lessons of history will repeat it. These fellas won't ever forget no matter how hard they try. Some (like my Dad) n'er carried them personally, but did get to see what they were for.

That said/typed...with every passing day fewer of these gems remain. In our time, an unfettered 'surp is devalued by hacking it up because someone wants to collect it. Economic sensibilities preclude "folksmithing" now.

None of you are in trouble for playing with your toys...you all realize that, if you'd left 'em new, in the package they'd be worth more now. It's not the folly of children, it's that toys are to be played with
 
X2 on OP!

I love the folks that get on here, and cry "Oh the horror" about a rifle modified before they were born, that was carried in a war looong before they were born...
I then think of my Dad. A young fella when Berlin fell. He has memories of that time, and no desire to "celebrate" them. Hell, you have to really coax them out of him. Same with my [now deceased] grandparents...

When my Dad came to Canada, he bought a vz24. Had a scope added to it by a smith (not with JB weld) of fine repute. These rifles were cheap, and abundant. In many cases, modified (folksmith) by fellas who actually carried them in service. I doubt any of those 'ol boys really wanted to relive the glory of war...they did want deer, or moose and lopped a few pounds of the tool they used to get it.

Those that forget the lessons of history will repeat it. These fellas won't ever forget no matter how hard they try. Some (like my Dad) n'er carried them personally, but did get to see what they were for.

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You are actually making my point, they wanted to forget the horror & we shouldn't. Long after our vets have turned to dust there will be three ways you can try to connect with that period, read a book, see a static display ( Poor Haida, last of her kind, languishing in harbor) or shoot a milsurp. Anyone care to hazard which of the three will be the more vivid experience? Personally, I could care less about value & would prefer the common man to have access to full wood enfields without having to take out a loan to get one.
 
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I don't mind milsurp rifles that have some tasteful mods to make then more suitable
to their owners. There's still plenty of old Enfields and Mosin Nagants out there that
have been previously sporterized. These make nice project guns for folks who
have the skills to fix 'em up proper.

This No. 4 Mk 1 Lee Enfield for example, I converted into a .45 ACP carbine.
The gun was a Parker Hale sporter that had a worn out barrel, but the action and wood were fine.
watermark.php


My 1925 Mosin Nagant 91/30 is still a full wood, full length rifle but with with a Huber trigger,
turned down bolt and bedding job to improve it's accuracy and handling.
Nothing too "Bubba" on this one.
watermark.php


Of course, I would not tinker on a Mosin sniper with all matching numbers or
alter a primo Mauser or Enfield, but I have no worries doing up a rifle that's
already been goofed with.

As with collecting cars, gun collectors want stock, unaltered units.
Shooters and gearheads want to tinker on their toys to get more out of them.
It's all up to personal preference.
 
OP, those that use "bubba" are likely authoritarian control freaks that have difficulty dealing with a world that isn't precisely what they think it should be. Do what you want with your own stuff and pay them no attention.
 
...You are actually making my point, they wanted to forget the horror & we shouldn't...


It's actually a point that is shared by many. "Those that forget history are bound to repeat it" It's also become a cliche...


I don't think for a second I could reconnect with the horrors of WWI by sitting in a trench. Even a mud filled one...Get some folks to pin you in there with a few rounds, and you'll only reconnect with sitting in a muddy ditch. You won't travel in time, you will get dirty pants!

I own/have owned quite a few surps. Not a single one provided any insights on their own. They are just steel n' wood. Purpose built, nothing gestalt (more than the sum of it's parts) going on there. The ones in all original wood are worth more, but are not truly superior in any other way. Honestly (and no disrespect to the bones in Flanders fields) hacking the wood off doesn't alter the functionality of a rifle, only it's collectibility. My favorite .303 was done by the great bubba, Parker Hale. Gorgeous wood (albeit in a sporty fashion), and crazy accurate. I feel pretty good knowing it's purpose now is to fill freezers, for hunters on budgets.
 
To me, a gun is bubbaed up when someone makes an absolute hack job of it. Tasteful and/or practical modifications that are well done don't really deserve the label unless you happened to do them to a real collectors piece. And to the snobs out there. your 91/30 isn't a collectors piece. If you like it original, more power to you. Just don't expect it to skyrocket in value, everyone's expecting that and that's precisely why it wont.
 
I don't mind milsurp rifles that have some tasteful mods to make then more suitable
to their owners. There's still plenty of old Enfields and Mosin Nagants out there that
have been previously sporterized. These make nice project guns for folks who
have the skills to fix 'em up proper.

This No. 4 Mk 1 Lee Enfield for example, I converted into a .45 ACP carbine.
The gun was a Parker Hale sporter that had a worn out barrel, but the action and wood were fine.
watermark.php


My 1925 Mosin Nagant 91/30 is still a full wood, full length rifle but with with a Huber trigger,
turned down bolt and bedding job to improve it's accuracy and handling.
Nothing too "Bubba" on this one.
watermark.php


Of course, I would not tinker on a Mosin sniper with all matching numbers or
alter a primo Mauser or Enfield, but I have no worries doing up a rifle that's
already been goofed with.

As with collecting cars, gun collectors want stock, unaltered units.
Shooters and gearheads want to tinker on their toys to get more out of them.
It's all up to personal preference.

Holly crap!!!!!!!

So in a bolt action correct me if I am wrong, Can you put a big drum on that road warrior looking rifle with like a 50 shot or 75 shot drum? I have never seen something like that and is it legal? It is plain scary looking. But it needs something else. Since its a pistol caliber, It would be a close range rifle within 100 m. Needs a laser or small scope on it. Cool idea. There is a market for this. Go into production, what did it cost you to make it?
 
You are actually making my point, they wanted to forget the horror & we shouldn't. Long after our vets have turned to dust there will be three ways you can try to connect with that period, read a book, see a static display ( Poor Haida, last of her kind, languishing in harbor) or shoot a milsurp. Anyone care to hazard which of the three will be the more vivid experience? Personally, I could care less about value & would prefer the common man to have access to full wood enfields without having to take out a loan to get one.

Well put!! My grandad was a British WW2 veteran, his dad WW1. My dad and family immigrated here just after the war. Grandad never really spoke about the things he'd seen and done in the war until his late 80's. He was still sharp and scrappy as ever. He spoke of battle, the long periods of waiting for battle and the terrible conditions. He told me of good men he knew that were killed. He also spoke of the country's he'd been to, France, holland Germany and others. He told stories of the long nights in the pub, drinking away the pain.

One day he told me about how good a lee Enfield rifle was, and that it was accurate and very reliable.

His last days were spent in a bed at the health sciences center in Winnipeg. I bet he never thought when he was a teenager all of those years ago that he would live to almost 90.

Grandad died several years ago.

I got my first milsurp last year, a bubba'd no1 mk3 from a friend at work. I had to have an enfield for my first milsurp. I brought it home and marveled at the craftsmanship, markings, dents and dings. I right away was drawn to it, and wondered where it had been, who's life it may have taken. It was an honor to be the keeper of a piece of history.

Then a short time later I shot it. I was filled with emotion, and had a sudden deep felt respect for my grandad. I wish I took the time to thank him for what he did all of those years ago.

So that being said I don't like bubba. He defaces pieces of history that help me and others remember our loved ones who fought in those brutal places, killing and being killed, winning, loosing, laughing and crying. These were the darkest places that human kind have been to, and all that left is these guns, stories and books!

These are not guns to me, they are objects that helped shape history. I have some really nice guns, but they aren't for sale and I don't look at them in terms of monetary value but historical value.

At a gunshow this weekend I bought a 1909 Finnish captured Mosin Nagant. I walked over to Smellie grinning ear to ear at the treasure I just purchased. He looked it over and listed half a dozen wars that the gun was involved in including both world wars. He then looked at me a said "that guns been through all of that and now it lays on a table passed over and nobody wants it!!". That's how I look at it, I bought that old gun and I'm very happy to be it's keeper for awhile.

Sorry to rant but some people get it but most don't! These are treasured pieces of history and should be treated that way.
 
Holly crap!!!!!!!

So in a bolt action correct me if I am wrong, Can you put a big drum on that road warrior looking rifle with like a 50 shot or 75 shot drum? I have never seen something like that and is it legal? It is plain scary looking. But it needs something else. Since its a pistol caliber, It would be a close range rifle within 100 m. Needs a laser or small scope on it. Cool idea. There is a market for this. Go into production, what did it cost you to make it?

It was made to us 1911 magazines meaning your stuck with 1911 capacity...
 
No offense to anyone, but guns are not the only thing to remind us of history. I agree that it is pretty cool to hold something in your hands that has been through a war or any other part of history, but a gun that was brought back and turned into a hunting rifle still tells a story. One of my prized possesions is a lowly cigarette lighter that belonged to my great grandfather, stamped on the bottom is "Made in occupied Japan". It wouldn't be worth nearly as much to me if it wasn't from a family member, and I think a lot of people feel the same way about old guns.
Kristian
 
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