To torque or not to torque that is the question

bc308 said:
I have had this for a long time, and the new ones are probably electronic.

These guys are in most towns and not hard to find. They cover most of Canada. They also have equipment on their trucks to check the tool's accuracy and can send them out for service if necessary.

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I have that same tool. I'm sure I sent the snap on dealer's kids to university.
 
The fat wrench is all you need. You certainly don’t need to spend 1K to tighten scope rings, or assemble bicycles for that matter. I’ve installed many scopes with a fat wrench, and it’s all been good!
 
Guys over-torque rings to keep the scope from skidding from recoil. The best way that I've found to ensure that the scope never skids is to put a drop of lock-tite in the bottom half of each ring - not on screws - set the scope down into that tiny bit of locktite, and after it sets, it will never move. It dries clear - and when you take one apart years later, the little film of locktite comes off really easily with a fingernail. There may be a time to lap-bed rings, but this tiny dot of locktite (wood glue might work too) makes a perfect bed to lay a scope into. I put it together and then finish tightening the next day, but that delay may not be necessary.


As for torquing... if there is one screw on each side of the scope, they are equalized already - and if there are two or three screws on each side of the ring, it is hardly necessary to buck them down to maximum torque - and doing so certainly risks egging your scope. Strangely, when a guy uses a torque wrench, he begins to trust the wrench, and cannot even feel that the bit is beginning to slip in the screw head, or the screw is beginning to tear out threads because it is too short - or he may not pay attention to the type of screw head - slot, Phillips, Torx or Allen - and so, may over-stress the bit, the screw head or screw threads or ring threads or egg the scope - all for the want of the sense of the bare hand on a well-fitted driver. Using a torque wrench is not bad, but it does not change a man into a technician - use it for a tool, not for a stage prop - if you begin to feel the glow of I'm-The-Man, you are using it wrong.

Keep the screws threaded to equal depth on each side - it not only looks better, but the screws each get the same amount of thread to hold onto. If you have a bad screw - get new ones - now - don't cringe and ignore it - ammo is not cheap, and hunting trip memories are good or bad, depending on those screws. Depend on luck to bring the deer out on the right side of that tree - not to hold your scope straight.

Don't booger up the screw heads - how often have you seen a guy do some wild shots and then pull out his leatherman to check his scope screws - pull your scope off where you have tools, and put it back together properly the night before - and it only takes three shots to have it lined up again. It is not by shooting that you check the security of your scope mounting - when you get to the range, the only question might be about a few clicks this way or that to reset a fresh-mounted scope - and when you get to the bush, that gun should be so certainly assembled that the only thing to question is your own skills.

I attach my sling to my scope so it hangs right-side up when I walk - and have absolute confidence in every gun in the safe - nothing has ever moved - as I write this, I can see a deer out the window 120 yards, and would likely be out 200 before I could be lined up, but I could depend on any of my guns to put a bullet exactly as it was sighted last year or five years ago - this is the type of confidence that you want to have - not because "that should be good enough", but because it is right.

Now, I have written this out of order, so it may take a bit longer to read it - and you might have already dismissed what I began with - but if you only read the first two sentences and believed them, your life will be better - I'm not the Man, but I'd like to be a friend of his.
 
Jahnj0584 said:
Call me a redneck bafoon but I use my fingers and never had anything move or get damaged. The size of the hex key is that size FOR A REASON.
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same here , with normal hand tightening

how long have Wheeler wrenches been around? or any other special purpose buy-this-you-need-it
 
I hand tightened a lot of scopes over the years and never really had any problems but I use a wheeler now, scopes, mounts and rings are too expensive to bugger up these days. Having said that, I wouldn’t hesitate to hand tighten again if I didn’t have my wheeler handy.
 
anchor3593 said:
Guys over-torque rings to keep the scope from skidding from recoil. The best way that I've found to ensure that the scope never skids is to put a drop of lock-tite in the bottom half of each ring - not on screws - set the scope down into that tiny bit of locktite, and after it sets, it will never move. It dries clear - and when you take one apart years later, the little film of locktite comes off really easily with a fingernail. There may be a time to lap-bed rings, but this tiny dot of locktite (wood glue might work too) makes a perfect bed to lay a scope into. I put it together and then finish tightening the next day, but that delay may not be necessary.


As for torquing... if there is one screw on each side of the scope, they are equalized already - and if there are two or three screws on each side of the ring, it is hardly necessary to buck them down to maximum torque - and doing so certainly risks egging your scope. Strangely, when a guy uses a torque wrench, he begins to trust the wrench, and cannot even feel that the bit is beginning to slip in the screw head, or the screw is beginning to tear out threads because it is too short - or he may not pay attention to the type of screw head - slot, Phillips, Torx or Allen - and so, may over-stress the bit, the screw head or screw threads or ring threads or egg the scope - all for the want of the sense of the bare hand on a well-fitted driver. Using a torque wrench is not bad, but it does not change a man into a technician - use it for a tool, not for a stage prop - if you begin to feel the glow of I'm-The-Man, you are using it wrong.

Keep the screws threaded to equal depth on each side - it not only looks better, but the screws each get the same amount of thread to hold onto. If you have a bad screw - get new ones - now - don't cringe and ignore it - ammo is not cheap, and hunting trip memories are good or bad, depending on those screws. Depend on luck to bring the deer out on the right side of that tree - not to hold your scope straight.

Don't booger up the screw heads - how often have you seen a guy do some wild shots and then pull out his leatherman to check his scope screws - pull your scope off where you have tools, and put it back together properly the night before - and it only takes three shots to have it lined up again. It is not by shooting that you check the security of your scope mounting - when you get to the range, the only question might be about a few clicks this way or that to reset a fresh-mounted scope - and when you get to the bush, that gun should be so certainly assembled that the only thing to question is your own skills.

I attach my sling to my scope so it hangs right-side up when I walk - and have absolute confidence in every gun in the safe - nothing has ever moved - as I write this, I can see a deer out the window 120 yards, and would likely be out 200 before I could be lined up, but I could depend on any of my guns to put a bullet exactly as it was sighted last year or five years ago - this is the type of confidence that you want to have - not because "that should be good enough", but because it is right.

Now, I have written this out of order, so it may take a bit longer to read it - and you might have already dismissed what I began with - but if you only read the first two sentences and believed them, your life will be better - I'm not the Man, but I'd like to be a friend of his.
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Brilliant write-up. I would still defend lapping rings a tiny hair for only to prevent the defects in alignment of screw holes etc to "nick" the scope as it's clamping down, but on higher end rings they're not nearly as shoddy as some of the nightmare stuff I've seen.
 
Battlerifleelitist said:
I would still defend lapping rings a tiny hair for only to prevent the defects in alignment of screw holes etc to "nick" the scope as it's clamping down, but on higher end rings they're not nearly as shoddy as some of the nightmare stuff I've seen.
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Yes - you are right - I just don't know how to do that without widening the radius of the rings - when I used valve grinding compound to lap with, my one-inch diameter rod, plus the thickness of the grinding compound opened up the radius of the ring - which doesn't matter up and down, because the ring clamps down to suit, but side to side, the tube can now egg a tiny bit. A finer lapping compound might help... or an undersized lapping rod - that might work well - or like you say, better rings. It is opening morning here, and I am sitting, waiting to hear a sons shot - this is almost as much fun as sitting in the stand myself... okay maybe not - I'll go out later.
 
Never had to lap good rings, but I never cheap out on rings.
I use my Wheeler fat wrench on guns and carbon fiber bike parts. Works great, never stripped a bolt, cracked carbon parts, and never had something move after being properly torqued.
Worth every penny, just make sure you use quality bits if the kit doesn't already have what you need.
 
I have a Vortex torque screwdriver. I had never had any issues with striping, breaking or loosening before, but it the hope of better consistency/accuracy I decided it was needed. The vortex felt better to me and it seems accurate enough. I couldn’t tell you if it actually is or not though.
 
Biologist said:
Yes its a good practice to use a "good" torque wrench. Over-torqueing the ring screws can over-crush the scope tube and damage it. Ring and base screws can also shear off if over-tightened.

But that said, the problem with many of the inexpensive torque wrenches is the inaccuracy of the setting. Torque wrenches can easily often be in error of +/- 5 inch pounds, or more.

The ring screw torque specs in my experience are usually 18 inch pounds or less, depending on the make. In my opinion, 18 inch pounds is often too much for a light weight scope, especially rimfire scopes. I usually torque at no more than 15 inch pounds, and sometimes as low as 12 inch pounds. Obviously this needs to be monitored for any slippage in high recoil rifles. If that scope is moving, obviously it should be torqued more. But be careful. It does not take much excess toque to dent a lightweight tube.

Regarding base screws, there is huge variation in manufacturer's specs, depending on the design and purpose of use. Heavy duty picatinny base screws for rings designed for high recoiling calibers are often spec'd for 50 inch pounds. But light weight bases meant for a 11mm rimfire rail base may be only 20-25 inch pounds depending on brand. Some of those lightweight scopes can have small diameter screws that would shear off easily with excess torque. For my 11mm rimfire bases I usually do not go past 20 inch pounds.

I had a Wheeler Fat Wrench, but I grew to dislike its sloppy tolerances. I replaced it with a Vortex torque wrench (screw driver) because it has individual increments of adjustability....on its dial. I still however do not trust the increments, especially at the lower toques for light duty screws. I am under no illusions that this $120 torque wrench is accurate in increments of single inch pounds.

I learned about torque wrench accuracy from a senior bicycle mechanic who works on high-end racing bike frames made of the strongest lightest tubes of wonder metal and carbon. He told me that they can easily destroy the bike with a wrong call on the torque, and the tolerances are very fine between not enough, and cracked and broken tubes. He says if you are not spending at least $1K on a torque wrench, you cannot trust it. He said his shop sends these super accurate torque wrenches back to the factory every year to be re-calibrated. They can afford to do that because they sell and tune extremely expensive racing bikes. Based on what these bicycle mechanics know and use, its obvious that our typical shooters torque wrenches are rather open-ended for accuracy.
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If you're that worried about inaccuracy when it comes to something as small as inch pounds, you should really be taking the tenperature of the aluminum during torquing into thought because that can have a much greater impact than a couple inch pounds. But also both are negligible.
 
MkivSupra said:
If you're that worried about inaccuracy when it comes to something as small as inch pounds, you should really be taking the tenperature of the aluminum during torquing into thought because that can have a much greater impact than a couple inch pounds. But also both are negligible.
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Yes, I think you are correct.

I think that as long as we stay well away from the max torque for the tiny ring screws, we should be fine with the inexpensive torque wrenches that are +/- a few inch pounds. For action screws the inaccuracy may not matter. That said, I have a CZ452 Lux rimfire that has the forward barrel lug screw (4 inches in front of the action) that is extremely finicky for torque that affects accuracy, and repeatability for the wrench is important for accuracy for that rifle, to the point of individual inch pounds affecting competitiveness in BR matches. That is one reason I purchased the Vortex with single inch pound increments and retired the Wheeler Fat Wrench.

F-class shooter and youtuber "F-Class John" did a good 2-part series of videos on testing various torque wrench tool brands and models common to the average shooter and cyclist shops (not the specialty super high-end brands/models). In these videos he did a good job showing the variance of repeat readings within the same tool, and between tools.

Part 1:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q33hyXzguSQ

Part 2:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmTJ1y6dcWU
 
I use an older version of this driver from jet.

71F773pColL._AC_SL1500_.jpg
 
Right 'fixer. I use 90% alcohol with a Q-tip or a bit of paper-towel twisted to fit if too small for Qs. Otherwise - 1) Torque is inaccurate and 2) it's more likely to come un-screwed. Loktite doesn't hold as well with oily threads.
 
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