Tootall's Gunsmithing article

tootall

tootall

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A few random thoughts on Gunsmithing

Disclaimer! For the record, I am NOT a professional gunsmith. I hope that does not make me a poser for writing this.

It seems that every week someone posts a question about how to become a gunsmith, or how much does a gunsmith earn, or where to get training, or is it a good idea to become a Canadian Forces Weapon Technician.

I was hoping that a full-time working gunsmith might write an all-inclusive article to answer some of these questions, but no one else has so far. We can only hope that they are too busy working!

As stated above, I am not a true gunsmith. I do not have a gun shop, and I do not have any formal gunsmith training.

However, I do have good mechanical aptitude, I read lots of books and articles, I enjoy working on guns, and I have had a short time in the CF reserves as a Weapons Tech.

First of all, let’s clear up some definitions. One member recently asked how much a “journeyman” GS makes. The term Journeyman implies that you have taken an apprenticeship, and worked for a number of years (usually four, depending on the trade) under a fully qualified trades person. In my own trade of steel fabrication, I first took a 5 month pre-apprenticeship, then signed into a contract (indentured) for another 3 ½ years. During this time, I returned to school for one month per year. Only after four years total could I call myself a Journeyman. This may still exist in some parts of Europe for the gunsmith trade, but it does not exist in North America. It should be noted that the term “smith” often implies a true craftsman also, one that can do most anything involved in the given trade. This might include filing and tempering spring steel, to make flat springs from scratch, making your own chamber reamers for a new caliber, checkering wood stocks, engraving initials on metal parts, etc.
Compare this with the typical “parts swapper” in a small gun shop.
It is worth noting that the American Gunsmithing Institute draws a distinction between Armorer and gunsmith.

“It is AGI’s opinion that an Armorer is someone with a firm understanding of how a particular model of firearm is intended to work, the ability to do basic troubleshooting and repairs, and the competency to replace or exchange non-safety critical components on that model firearm. In other words, an Armorer can do much of the required maintenance on a firearm that they have been trained on, but do not yet possess the full knowledge of a professional gunsmith. Therefore, they are not in most cases authorized to re-barrel firearms or adjust headspace.”

From the above, you can see why I do not consider myself a true gunsmith, even though I have not met a gun that I cannot take apart and put back together again. I can do a little “parts-swapping” on my own and friends guns if required. For example, I recently replaced the firing pin in my Remington 1187 semi-auto shotgun. I helped fix a friend’s .22 rim fire that had been dry-fired so often that the firing pin had pounded into the chamber area, preventing it from feeding properly. My friend still calls me the Weapons Tech.

This brings us to the next question, “Would it be a good idea to join the CF to become a WPNS TECH, in order to learn gunsmithing?” Twice I have answered that question, saying no. The first time, the answer was accepted without further debate. The second time, two CF regular force guys challenged me on that, saying that they did OK by taking on side jobs, fixing private guns, etc.
So let’s re-word the question.

Question 1) I am a self starter. I read lots of books and technical stuff, I like to get my hands dirty playing with all manner of mechanical things. I have lots of my own guns I like to tinker with. Any harm in joining the CF as a WPNS TECH?

Answer 1) No, of course not! I respect anyone that wishes to serve their country. More power to you.

Question 2) I don’t know anything about guns, but I want to become a gunsmith, yet I don’t want to invest in an expensive course. Will the CF teach me all I need to know?

Answer 2) No, of course not! Do you really think they will teach you how to:
-do stock checkering
-re-blue a barrel
-make your own springs from scratch
-about designing, cutting, and tempering your own chamber reamers
-how to use the chamber reamer you just made
-take out the dents in a lever action tube magazine
-firing pin replacement of Rem 1187 shotguns
-cleaning up damaged .22 rimfire chambers
-locate and order parts for obsolete guns
-deal with Canada Customs for imported parts
-balance your business books, including GST, and provincial taxes
-install feed palls in a belt fed full auto. (Hey, we have a winner!)

OK, so far it has been a bit of a negative tone to this, and I apologize.
So now, where to find out the information that you seek.

It seems as though the internet is here to stay, so let’s search for some dedicated gunsmith sites.

Homegunsmith.com is quite good. If you become a subscriber, you can access a large library of books and articles
.homegunsmith.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi


This is an article about making chamber reamers.
http://personal.geeksnet.com/soderstrom/ReamerMaking/HowImakechamberreamers.htm

Article on Headspace.
http://www.cruffler.com/trivia-October99.html

Brownell's, a supplier of gunsmithing equipment, now has online schematics.
.brownells.com/aspx/NS/schematics/SchemMFG.aspx

Forum about making the Ruger Mini-14 accurate.
http://perfectunion.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=86

Mostly about buying surplus guns, but has lots of info on dis-assembly
http://www.surplusrifle.com/index.asp

I haven’t had a chance to go through this one yet, but he is a regular on Homegunsmith.com
http://blindhogg.com/gunsmithing.html
http://blindhogg.com/refinishing.html

For info on machining
http://www.practicalmachinist.com
and from the same site, a section on gunsmith machining
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/forum/16.html


There is a huge amount of info on the internet, and most of it is free. You just have to find it, and that can be a chore sometimes.

The next source of info is books. These can range in price from free at your local library, to moderate price if bought used, to rather expensive if you have to mail order new books.

Books in my own collection include

Gunsmithing , by Roy L. Dunlap (Copyright, 1950)

Home Gunsmithing Digest, by Tommy L. Bish (1970)

NRA Gunsmithing Guide (1971)

Gunsmithing: Tricks of the Trade , by J B Wood (1982)


Gunsmithing at Home , by John E. Traister (1985)

Learn Gunsmithing: The Troubleshooting Method , by the Editors of American Gunsmith (1992)

Gunsmithing Rifles , by Patrick Sweeney (1999)

Gunsmith Kinks Volumes I,II,III, and IV, by Brownells
This series is put together by Brownells, from tips and suggestions sent in form gunsmiths all over the world. The first volume was from 1969, and others followed.
Lots of info, and a fair bit of goofy jokes, stories, cartoons, etc.
(I got the set at a special "SHOTshow" price, and I am only part way through vol 2)

Also from Brownells, I have several of their yearly catalogs.

Also, from one of our CGN members, I was given a package of ICS correspondence school course handouts. (Thanks Mike!)
Of course, as I did not formally enroll, I will not get a piece of paper to hang on the wall, but the info is still good.


I have also borrowed a few others from the library. I am quite happy with the material in the ones I own. The library ones ranged from good to rather basic.

Also, American Gunsmith magazine is available through subscription.
.american-gunsmith.com/index.htm
This is not to be confused with American Gunsmithing Institute, AGI.

While reading is no substitute for actually doing the job, much can be learned from a book.

Moving up the cost ladder, and hopefully in educational value, is the video lessons.
American Gunsmith Institute, mentioned above, is the one that comes to mind first. I have not had any first hand experience with these tapes or DVD’s, but they do seem to get good reviews.
.americangunsmith.com/
(notice how similar the web address is to the magazine above)

Technical Video Rental has some of the AGI titles for rent at US$9.99 each.
technicalvideorental.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=113
The big machinist course is also available to rent, although at a higher price.
technicalvideorental.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=115_61

Finally, in both price and learning potential, we have the schools. There actually is one in Canada.
http://www.gunsmithing.ca/pages_en/index.html
As for cost, this is from the site.

Fee for opening of file : 100$
Residents of Quebec : free
Non residents of Quebec : contact the Gatineau Valley Technical School


There is also the Correspondence option.

.icslearn.ca/firearms/index.html
.career-edu.com/gunsmith_school.htm


In the US, there are a few classroom based schools. I just found these through Google

.schooloftrades.com/GUNSMITHING/ABOUT/course.cfm
.trinidadstate.edu/nra/


The NRA has several short courses offered through partnerships with trades colleges.
http://www.nrahq.org/education/gunsmithing.asp


So how is the best way to learn?
And is this the right career choice for me?
Only you can answer those questions.
Things to consider, are how much time and money can you afford to spend to get the training. And what wages do you expect to receive once you start working.
If you are your own boss, with your own store, it would be reasonable to expect your wage to be somewhere between going bankrupt in the first year, at the low end, to making a comfortable, but not wealthy, wage at the top end.
If you work for others, most likely in a small gun shop, you would probably make $10 to $15 per hour, depending on how valuable your talents are to your employer.

If you are a young person looking for a career, your situation will be different from a semi-retired guy looking for a hobby that pays a little something.

For a young guy, one avenue might be to become a journeyman machinist, then once you have a good paying trade, build upon your machining skills by taking various armorer courses, and studying the AGI videos. This would give you the job security of a trade, along with the good pay, and yet allow you to pursue gunsmithing as a side job.
Again, each person has their own priorities and situation.

I hope this helps.

I would very much like to hear from those actually working in the business. Am I on the right track? Or completely whacked out?

BTW. This took about a week to mull over in my mind, and about four hours over two nights to write. I hope those interested in gunsmithing spend at least 5 seconds looking for this thread before posting the same questions all over again!

EDIT link added
 
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Excellent post, very well researched. At the present time I take on a fair bit of work, mainly parts replacement plus quite a bit of trigger work and action smoothing/tightening. I started at about age seventeen under close supervision of my father who is a tool and die maker/machinist with a background in the automotive, aerospace and nuclear industries. My first big project was making a bullseye pistol out a series '70 1911 (tighten slide and frame, install low mounted bo-mar, machine frame for fully suported barrel, fit match barrel bushing, stipple front strap, build a compesator from scratch and match and polish the hammer & sear to get a 3.5 lb pull). This was all done during highschool shop class (everything but the frame work which was done at home). I should mention that my father was the machine shop teacher at this point in his career. I still have this pistol today (18 years later) and it shoots as well as the day I built it. The main reason I can not take on in depth machining projects at the present time is the lack of access to a mill and lathe, which will hopefully change. I could never see using this for a sole income but it is something I enjoy and it helps fund my shooting.

Cheers
 
tootall...great post!
There are plenty of handymen and hobbyists around, all the way from those with very minimal skills and knowledge (that would be me!), to those with considerable knowledge, experience, skills, and the proper tools to do fairly sophisticated work on firearms. Journeymen gunsmiths are few and far between. In my almost 60 years I've met only two men who might fit that category, and both came here from Europe...though I'm sure we have some great homegrown craftsmen as well. Being a gunsmith entails acquiring a vast amount of information, and developing skills which can be gained only through a great deal of hands on experience. From what I've seen, you are absolutely correct about the work being a labor of love. There are plenty of jobs requiring much less knowledge and skill, which are far more likely to provide a roof over one's head and put food on one's table. I know one fellow whom I hold in high regard for his gunsmithing abilities, and who apprenticed and worked in the business for several years. He eventually left the trade in his mid 40's to take on a semi-skilled labor job in a union setting for the sake of better wages and benefits.
 
Great post tootall:D I've been a machinist for 30 years and like you I enjoy tinkering with guns. However not by any stretch can I consider myself a Gunsmith. Most people want you to fix or modify their firearms for nothing. If I did that I'd be at it constantly. I have to firmly and politely decline and if they persist I tell them I charge $20 an hour...that usually gets them off my back:)
 
A thing to remember: a journeyman gunsmith may be considered as one that can do everything. That would include chequering, engraving, stock making, blueing, fitting and making barrels and actions and absolutely everything that can be done to a gun. That would be like going to your family doctor and thinking he would be the one to crack your chest and do a heart job. Not only is this the day of specialization but for the most part it has always been that way. Many are better at some things than others and therefore can make more money at certain types of work. So while it may be a great idea to become expert at all the tasks to be a gunsmith it is not practical. For example most that chequer stocks for a living and are masters at the task certainly do not consider themselves gunsmiths. The same applies to most of the specialized fields and believe me at twenty dollars per billable hour one will quickly be on welfare.
 
Great thread ,
I never wanted to be a gunsmith but for awhile I wanted to be a machinist . The trade appealed to me untill I realized that when I'm totally screwed with a task I usually wind up at a machine shop with parts in hand . I've never considered myself an idiot and do pretty well but when I realized the machinist has to deal with guys like me all day , no thanks . to much stress .
 
VERY interesting, and I only wish I had the time to sit down and really reply :)

Ian Robertson has hit it on the head, of course. You pretty well need to specialize. I specialize in everything to do with 1911's, CZ's (and more or less S&W revolvers). I feel I can do MOST things on these guns better than anyone I can think of (and I'm modest, too :) but ask me to checker a wooden rifle stock? Headspace a Mauser rifle? I know I could figure it out, and I also own a pretty comprehensive reference library, but an expert in those fields? Absolutely not, and I would not have the time...

I have great respect for those building long range accurate rifles, working on gorgeous Perazzi Trap guns, fashioning beautiful flintlock rifles, rebuilding Lugers, etc. I have a very promising young man in my shop, but would not expect him to become an expert on Model 94's. At least not in my shop :)

Gunsmithing is indeed very like medicine, and I guess there is a place for GP's even now, but if you are a perfectionist like me and strive to be the very best at what you do (and charge a decent price for your work), you need to specialize.

My advice to anyone wanting to get into it is to read voraciously, learn under someone by whatever means, and have a mindset of learning from others. I learn a few new things every day, sometimes from the unlikeliest sources, and I pity those who profess to want to learn, but really insist on making all the mistakes themselves that guys like me made years ago.
Anyways, off my soapbox and off to bed with a parting message: If you really want to work at something you will enjoy, do it!

Gunnar
www.armco-guns.com
 
Of course the cheapest education is made at someone elses expense, that means listen and learns constantly. I too learn something every day and in this business you must be a sponge soaking up not only how and why but also new products and what customes want to pay for!
 
I guess, to start with, I should say I've been building LR rifles ( TR and any -any)for about 15 years. The only reason I began building rifles came about because of my involvement in the sport as a sight maker. It was a natural extension because folks would ask for some work to get the sight mounted up correctly. Here in the US, an FFL is required to have someones rifle in my custody.
When my kids where old enough to start shooting, they both where pissed that they couldn't do as well as I could. So, I started them in competative shooting, cause that is the ONLY way to really learn how.
I was miffed, after some exposure, that the sights everyone was using was the same crap I used as a kid when I shot small bore in high school. Pretty much total junk, with most looking for someone to refurb the Redfields they had.
My back round is tool making with lots and lots of progressive and compound dies, gage making, and multi cavity, high volume injection molds. I've worked with air bearing tech and at a few places had tols of + - 10 mil.

Gun work is a piece of cake.

Should I have had to become a Journyman Smith, with all the general skills, I would have bought a garbage truck and done that. I do wish I learned about high end shot guns because there is a lot more money in it.

I prefer metal work only, but cannot get entirely away from the stock work. I HATE stock work, cannot make money at it, but it comes with the terrritory. even though I disslike it, I do a decent job of because I value doing it right or not at all.

I am slowly moving away from building complete rifles for that reason. I've found a few more precise products to make and market along with contract work for other industries. My nitch is close tolerance work. Grinding, lapping, asphere, parabolic forms etc.

I love the sport, the competition, the friendships, but making a buck to get by is primary.

Ian Robertson is one of the best damn stock makers there is, and I use his stuff for my customers all the time. I like to think I was one of the first to encourage him to start up on a pro level at stock making. Ian, I hope your not pissed at me for that!!

Your milage may vary.

Alan Warner
 
Ian Robertson said:
No Alan, I still have your Unertl, which you may never see because now that you mention it it is partly YOUR fault.
Click to expand...


What comes around, goes around, EH

Alan
 
Thank you again for that outstanding posting chock full of information. My interest in gunsmithing is not for personal gain, although perhaps one might make a few bucks to pay for toys... no, my interest is strictly for personal reasons. I want to play with my guns without blowing myself up. Hence, I am a firm believer in training and education. In one of my other hobbies of amatuer rocketry, the threat of inflicting serious damage to one's person is very real and hence the need for some serious education before playing with, well, rocket science and rocket fuel. The hobby is a blast (sorry, couldn't refuse) and I equate the firearm hobby with the rocketry hobby. A basic knowledge is necessary just to keep from hurting yourself... but to really enjoy the hobby you should be able to work on what you are flying or, in this case, shooting.

I think that (in my case anyway) the ability to actually work on the firearms that I am using is going to be half the fun.

And if it isn't fun, I really don't have time for it. It is isn't challenging, I really don't have time for it. The older we get (not that I am an old fart quite yet, although the kids would say differently) the more we realize that the challenge to perfect the art from all angles is where the personal satisfaction lies - that's where I am heading.

We went fly fishing on the Miramichi River this past summer for salmon. BIG BIG salmon. I had never held a fly rod in my life nor had the kids. But we all picked it up in a jiffy and before too long were looking to perfect our techniques and hired a fly fishing guide to assist... money well spend as we wouldn up landing and releasing some 25 pounders in the two days we were on the river. What a rush! Now we have fly-tying on our list of things to do and just picked up some fly tying stands at Harbour Freight a couple of weeks ago. We are almost ready to get going with this. Another family project. As if we don't have enough on our plates already.

Regards,
 
tootall,
That was a good post. Their are a quite a few really accomplished all-around gunsmiths in Canada (Dennis Sorenson, David Henry, Ralf Martini are some that I know. There are a bunch more whom I don't know) but all end up specializing a bit at some point.
Some of our gunsmiths are American schooled, some are products of English or European training, some are largely self taught. Some were machinists first and gunsmiths second. Some the other way around. Some are successful businessmen. Some are economically inept. Some are knowledgable and a great source of information. Some are full of crap! Just like any other trade or profession!
Anyway, that was one of the better posts on the "Should I become a gunsmith?" question that I have seen. Good job. Regards, Bill.
 
Thanks Tootall for great post. I have spent the past few weeks looking for informtion on how to get started and got about a sixteenth of the info.
Thanks again
 
tootall said:
OOPS!
I forgot to mention Brownell's, for all your supplies.

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/Home/default.aspx

A guy could get a headstart just by reading the description of each pice of equipment they sell.
The big catalog they have is thing to behold.

Thanks for the kind words, guys.
Click to expand...

I have already made my wish list.

This was a really good post. I'm glad it is stickied.

-Brad
 
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