Trail Boss and 455 Webley Mk I

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Bubot

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Hi: I am getting into reloading a Webley Mk1 I and would like to try Trail boss powder as I have heard good things. However, I can't find any loading data. I use Lee dies with the Lee measuire scoops that are in cc's. The .5 cc scoop gives about 4.5 grains of Unique which is a reasonable load. I don't know what the right starting amount for Trail boss would be. I understand its about 4.0 grains but am unsure how that would work out in the cc scoops since it is more voluminous. For intance, would it be 1.0 cc, or is that too much - maybe 0.8 cc. Does anyone know how much the vooume would be in comparison to Unique? Thanks for any help I can get.
John
 
Trail boss

You wont' find Trail Boss specific data for your .455 In the IMR powder booklet nor on their website.....they have data for 15 pistol ctgs. from .32 S & W Long to .45 Colt. You will be on your own unless some one on this board has tried it.

To answer your "dipper "/ "scoop" question.....

A level 0.5 cc dipper load of Tboss = 2.2 grains
A level 0.7 cc dipper = 3.1 grains (no .8 cc dipper in my set)
A level 1.3 cc dipper = 6.2 grains

If you are going to reload cartridges for any pistols/rifles and especially for those probably over 60+ years of age you need to get a powder scale to measure your load weight!!
Trail boss burn rate is just under "Bullseye " and a lot faster than Unique powder, so "dipping " aproximations is not the way to start out your new reloading hobby.
Dippers have their place...but not for unpublished load data ...

...your mileage may vary
 
Trail Boss + .455

I would strongly reccomend that you get a scale and measure your scoop volumes......you have to set up your own data

you have at least two things to juggle.....Trail Boss occupies more volume than 'regular' powders...and it is (more importantly) fairly quick........in my reading closer to Bullseye than Unique.....

there is good info on the IMR website, some data posted here by Dingus and a good article in the Hogdon 2007 reloading magazine.. 1.0 cc sounds hot to me.....depends on bullet weight..


That said..Trail Boss is a superb powder..great in the oldies and perfect in
.455...

Steve
 
Be careful.....very careful. There are complex factors to consider when loading for ALL Webley revolvers let alone early Mk s I & II. As one simple example, what brass are you using? The longer MkI brass is safer than MkII for obvious and not so obvious reasons. One local shooter is using modified Colt brass because it's long enough to cover the bolt-stop cutout in the cylinder. There's good reason for doing this.
To be more specific, 4.5 grs. Unique is a hot load with any brass in this cartridge. Will it damage the revolver? Maybe yes, maybe no. If it does you'll be very sorry.
A loud echo to a statement above: For this project throw away your dippers and get a good scale.
 
If you can't find loading data, call IMR at the number on the label and speak to one of the techies.
They have computers with a lot of data that isn't in any of the loading manuals. They were very helpful to me and also sent off some pamphlets with loading data not found in my normal books.
 
As noted above, Trailboss is a fast powder, not quite as fast a Bullseye but much faster than Unique. That will also mean you can easily and quickly get high pressures, even though muzzle velocity is not high.

Fast powders are also very sensitive to OAL (ie case volume). I don't load for the Webley but do load for 38S&W and in older revolvers I tend to stick with slower powders.
 
Cold Lake Kid

I contacted IMR /Hogdon 4 months ago before I got my 4 pounds of Trail boss and was told that if it isn't for one of the ctgs.specified on their reloading site data chart they don't reccommend its useage and would not offer any data...can you provide data for any ctg. you inquired about that's not on the "List" for others to use ?

I have successfully worked up very accurate Trailboss loads for about 7 modern rifle ctgs not on their "list" and would appreciate any information/data for rifle ctgs other than for .222. .223. 308 30/06 .338 .416 mag .444 . 45/70 if it's available...thx
 
Pitch the scoops and use a scale. The scoops can vary the charge plus or minus a full grain.
Trailboss is a Hodgdon powder. Send 'em an email and ask about it. Making up your own data is exceedingly dangerous. help@hodgdon.com
 
I am using 5.5 gr of Trail Boss in my Webley Green Mk VI as a minimum starting load (mild 45 Colt Load) using Hornady 455 MkII, Dominion 455 Colt, Modified 45 Auto Rim and shortened 45 Long Colt brass.
Accuracy is good, no sign of pressure, low recoil, but as it hits the steel of a popper it is obvious that the Peacemaker of the British Empire has some stopping power.
Maximum load would probably be 6.5 grains of Trail Boss.
It does not seem to make much difference if you use the longer Mk I or the shorter Mk II brass.
TRail Boss fills the case and sure prevents double loads while seating the 220 grain Ruger SAA 220 grain wheel weight bullet without a problem.
 
Well i use Starline 45 colt or 45 scofeild brass in all my British guns that are 455/476 now.
Some need rim thinning ect some dont, but its much better to have the longer solid head brass.
Even if it needs a little thining triming ect. ;)
I have a been loading 6 grs of TB in the 45 colt cases with a .454 dia Keiths 250 bullets and its doing around 720 FPS
the guns ive been shooting that load outa are 476 WEBLEY WGs model 1892 and a 1889 and a model 1885.
Mind you the WGs have the LONG cylinder that can handle a full length 45 colt case.
If i were shooting a MKI that was 455/476 caliber id use a Starline 45 Scofeild case (only the rims forward side should need about .015 tho taken off.)
Some guns they fit full length. so check before ya shorten em up!
I have shot 5.3 grs of TB in a Webley no 4 pryse in scofeild cases again with the .454 dia 250 keith bullets. Was a very acurate rd! about 630 FPS im not guessing here ive Chronographed these loads
NO sign of presure and id say a Webley MKI is a stronger lock up action than a Pryse tho thats a tough question to answer.
And no i aint blowin up even one gun yet touch wood!
not saying you wont tho :D
 
Maybe I'm missing something with Trail Boss... I'm not the MOST familiar with it. I only use it to dramatically reduce the the recoil of some larger calibers...

But my understanding is that you just really can't go wrong with Trail Boss.

In fact, direct from Hodgdon's site is a PDF that basically states, fill the case to the bottom of the bullet, and that's the max load.

https://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-Reduced-Loads R_P.pdf

So yes... I completely agree that weighing is a good practice over the dippers. Always be safe reloading... But Trail Boss is really a tame cat.
 
I fully agree that the OP needs to buy a powder scale to confirm what WEIGHT his scoops are holding. But I don't agree with those of you that are saying that he should toss them out. That would imply loading EVERY cartridge by weight. And that is simply not done other than for match target ammo loading.

Bubot, you NEED to stop thinking in terms of volume and dippers and buy a scale that measures in grains. Weight is the key and your primary concern. The use of dippers is only to make measuring out a "close enough" weight easier to do. Dippers will pretty consistently have roughly a 5% variation in dip to dip. That's close enough for most loading but you want to confirm this with a dip that is poured onto a weighing scale for finding the correct average weight of each dip.

Bottom line is that using a dipper is for convenience only so we can measure out a "close enough" WEIGHT of charge. And because various powders have various densities it's a dangerous thing to try to equate a volume of one to a volume of another. Not only is there a big risk of getting it wrong it's simply not a valid practice.

For this reason you don't want to look at volumes of one powder to volumes of any other as having any valid meaning at all. Get a scale and use it.

In the meantime I feel for you at finding any load data. There's sure not much out there for .455 Webley. Ideally you would work up to a good load for TB using a chrono to measure the bullet speed and start with a light load that fills perhaps half the case and work up until you are getting a good average bullet velocity that is within the SAMMI specs or run out of room in the casing where you're not compressing the load. But if you don't have a scale I'm going to guess that you don't have a chrono either.

A good scale that I'm using which works well was the one I suggested in my post on Page 3 of this thread;

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/1177867-Digital-Scale/page3
 
Really need a scale, and need more information. Loads will vary between original Dominion and other balloon headed cases and the ones cut from .45 Long Colt.

Also need to clarify, is he referencing .455 Mk I (short like .455 Colt) or in a Mk 1 revolver? The later cases were longer and can take more. (Edit: OP was in 2007. Likely long since made up his mind)

No experience with Trail Boss; all my .455 gets Unique. Mk II and later cases were originally for cordite charges, not even nitrocellulose or BP. Mk I cases were more similar to the Eley and earlier black powder designs. Most of my military brass and collected rounds have the 'z' mark indicating cordite, even up to WWII.
 
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Edit: OP was in 2007. Likely long since made up his mind
Click to expand...

Darn! Burned again! I'm usually pretty sharp at seeing such things.

OK, everyone stand around and point sarcastically at fat tony for being the one to raise this from the dead.... :D
 
I use Trailboss in my 45ACP which is pretty similar to the Webley. The website for Trailboss says you can load safely to the base of the bullet but do not compress, the grains will break and give you inconsistent pressure. I measured a case to the point where the base of the bullet would sit, marked a test case and loaded to just below this level and determined the number of grains. I made 20 rounds and tested them. Recoil is light when compared to normal powders. I have found it to be a very consistent light recoiling accurate load for my 1911.
 
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