Training

Slavex said:
I only let people I know and trust run their guns hot at my classes. I've been on lots of hot range courses and I've seen numerous NDs on a bunch of them. Including from instructors while we were circled to talk.
As for the dryfire portion of the ICHDAH, How else would you drop the hammer or striker, universally across multiple gun platforms? Since by law, IPSC, competitors in Canada can't carry hot from range torrange, we need to make sure they are empty. The dry fire is the final way of proving this. And yes I teach my students to make it an aimed shot. It's lazy to do otherwise.
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An nd by anyone is an instant punt from the range and likely a ban. If the instructor does it, I want my money back the guy is a clown.

As for "legal" I presume you're talking about ipsc rules? And there is no reason to drop the hammer/striker unless you intend to shoot. Guns stay holstered, fingers off triggers and muzzles pointed in a "safe" direction at all times. All guns are always loaded so whu are we depressing the trigger? The answer is because people are too dumb to follow the fundamental four and no one will hold people to them. As an easier bandaid solution you have dropping the hammer. Pure dumb, however if it is to be done I fully agree that it is an aimed trigger press.

Tdc
 
I get your argument dude, I do. However, look at your ATT, unless actually engaged in competition or target practice the gun is to be unloaded. Now for range days where you are out practicing, is anyone going to notice? Nope, but at match, where inspections happen, someone would notice. As well, IPSC has a pretty good history with cold ranges and not having problems. However when it was started it was hot ranges, it was Cooper and the boys as I understand it, who decided cold ranges were safer in a competitive environment.
You did miss out on part of my explanation though, on a cold range, once you've cleared the gun, on a lot of them you are now left with a cocked gun, hammers back. We don't want that, as that's an indicator of it being loaded. Dropping the hammer, by pulling the trigger is the surest way to prove it is unloaded before it goes into the holster. I've seen people #### that whole system up more times than I can count. It won't leave training scars and is not dangerous to do. I teach both IPSC type courses and LEO courses, I have zero issue transitioning from one type of range to another. In FOF scenarios you won't see me unload and show clear or anything like that. Don't be overly dogmatic dude, you remember the arguments we used to have back in the day, and now we tend to agree more? This is one of the few areas you're still stuck in a Yeager response lol, and even he recommends shooting USPSA to better your skills.
 
TDC said:
Some people carry off the range more than on. The point of a hot range is the responsibility it brings. A cold range dumbs it down and that's when people get shot. The whole two methods of handling a firearm bs. All the courses I've taken were hot ranges. The skills ranged from near zero experience to very experienced, no one had an nd. On several courses we shot past other students and on others we carried two hot guns! Wow were we ever dangerous. Hot meant chambered as well for those not following and hot guns during classroom and lunch. Imagine that, being treated like an adult.

Tdc
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You are telling us that you would be comfortable going to a course with people you don't know, and running a hot range range right from the start?

Not me brother. You are far more trusting than I. I've seen enough idiocy on courses, from those who should know better, than to trust anyone I haven't shot with multiple times. Maybe I've just been on more courses than you, I don't know. But I've seen some very sketchy stuff from new students, and experienced guys!

Nothing is ever absolute. Unfortunately, when on a range you have to cater to the lowest common denominator. The trouble with running a range hot, with people you have never shot with before is that an ND could result in a serious injury or death. It's not as simple as banning them after the fact! Until you know what your fellow students are capable of the only way to be sure is to go hot only on the line.
 
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Slavex said:
I get your argument dude, I do. However, look at your ATT, unless actually engaged in competition or target practice the gun is to be unloaded. Now for range days where you are out practicing, is anyone going to notice? Nope, but at match, where inspections happen, someone would notice. As well, IPSC has a pretty good history with cold ranges and not having problems. However when it was started it was hot ranges, it was Cooper and the boys as I understand it, who decided cold ranges were safer in a competitive environment.
You did miss out on part of my explanation though, on a cold range, once you've cleared the gun, on a lot of them you are now left with a cocked gun, hammers back. We don't want that, as that's an indicator of it being loaded. Dropping the hammer, by pulling the trigger is the surest way to prove it is unloaded before it goes into the holster. I've seen people #### that whole system up more times than I can count. It won't leave training scars and is not dangerous to do. I teach both IPSC type courses and LEO courses, I have zero issue transitioning from one type of range to another. In FOF scenarios you won't see me unload and show clear or anything like that. Don't be overly dogmatic dude, you remember the arguments we used to have back in the day, and now we tend to agree more? This is one of the few areas you're still stuck in a Yeager response lol, and even he recommends shooting USPSA to better your skills.
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Define "actively engaged"? I honestly don't care what a piece of paper says regarding a loaded firearm, nevertheless I agree that at some ranges that are vast in size, wandering around hot will surely upset the JBT crowd employed by the feds. Talk about ignorant dogmatic thinking.

A "cocked" gun in a holster is no more or less dangerous than a hammer down gun that is holstered. The key here is holstered, why this alludes most is beyond me. If you aren't shooting then why are you drawing?? If you're drawing then your sights/muzzle are pointed at something you intend to shoot, and once you've decide to shoot then your finger engages the trigger. Not a difficult concept.

As for the "Yeager response" you'd be dead wrong. I preach what I preach out of logic, not dogmatic blind faith. I hate to say it but the IPSC crowd is by far the most dogmatic group of shooters around. I couldn't tell you the number of times some IPSC shooter has felt the need to push their ignorant range rules on myself or other shooters at the range. Last I checked, there were only four rules, and any additional rules are that of the range, not IPSC. IPSC history is not perfect, which tells me their fail safe rules are far from being so. I have met two ISPC shooters who have shot themselves in the leg and know several others who have been disqualified for discharging a round in the SAFE HANDLING AREA. How can that happen? The rules are iron clad and fail safe right? The answer to that is stupid people. Paper rules don't dictate physical actions.

Clobbersauras said:
You are telling us that you would be comfortable going to a course with people you don't know, and running a hot range range right from the start?

Not me brother. You are far more trusting than I. I've seen enough idiocy on courses, from those who should know better, than to trust anyone I haven't shot with multiple times. Maybe I've just been on more courses than you, I don't know. But I've seen some very sketchy stuff from new students, and experienced guys!

Nothing is ever absolute. Unfortunately, when on a range you have to cater to the lowest common denominator. The trouble with running a range hot, with people you have never shot with before is that an ND could result in a serious injury or death. It's not as simple as banning them after the fact! Until you know what your fellow students are capable of the only way to be sure is to go hot only on the line.
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As I posted, all the courses I was on were run hot. Yes, there were novices and yes there were some with questionable handling skills. I trust the instructors to make the call and remove those who are unsafe. Its a big boy game, its big boy rules. I also fully understand and accept the risk of being shot while at the range practicing or during a course. That being said, all the close calls I've had were at the range on my time, none were on course. The problem is with the instructors not disciplining those who don't possess the basic skills to operate safely. Its a business, and most schools are more interested in profit over course content. Dumbing down the course content and gun handling is a much easier method of reducing range accidents(negligence really) and maximizing said profit. Generally those who are willing to invest in training are a little more serious about their shooting than those you run into at the range. However, everyone here takes the blind risk with those at the range and never think twice about it.

TDC
 
^well said as usual.


I'm not sure everyone knows what the four rules we talk about are.

ACTS/PROVE is good, the 4 rules are better...

1) All guns are always loaded.
2) Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
3) Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on target and you have decided to shoot.
4) Be sure of your target, including its foreground, and background.

—paraphrased from Jeff Cooper's original.

Someone said we could have 1 golden rule, "All guns are always loaded" and quit there, but in order to break it down into more detail, we've been given 4 rules to follow.

The thing about these rules is that breaking just 1 at a time is not the end of the world. The guys I train with focus on never breaking any, but we are all human. Nobody is perfect. Once you start breaking more than one, bad things can happen. Re: Being muzzled sucks, being muzzled by someone with their finger on the trigger is a bad day.
 
metcalfe said:
^well said as usual.


I'm not sure everyone knows what the four rules we talk about are.

ACTS/PROVE is good, the 4 rules are better...

1) All guns are always loaded.
2) Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
3) Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on target and you have decided to shoot.
4) Be sure of your target, including its foreground, and background.

—paraphrased from Jeff Cooper's original.

Someone said we could have 1 golden rule, "All guns are always loaded" and quit there, but in order to break it down into more detail, we've been given 4 rules to follow.

The thing about these rules is that breaking just 1 at a time is not the end of the world. The guys I train with focus on never breaking any, but we are all human. Nobody is perfect. Once you start breaking more than one, bad things can happen. Re: Being muzzled sucks, being muzzled by someone with their finger on the trigger is a bad day.
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Not that I'm surprised, but you sir understand the logic and brilliance of the fundamental four rules. Its too bad the masses haven't grasped such a simple concept, it would really make standardizing range rules a lot easier.

TDC
 
metcalfe, thanks for posting those.

I always viewed my experience in the CFSC courses as "here's how you can make sure that a firearm is safe, and ready for YOUR use". I felt that there wasn't enough emphasis on conducting yourself once your weapon was hot. We loaded, and then immediately unloaded. I feel like firing even a single live round would have made the whole PROVE acronym hit home a lot harder.

Reading these four rules, to me, governs the entire shooting experience. ACTS and PROVE doesn't have the same urgency or seriousness when you read them side by side.
 
It's hard to turn the "Four Rules" into a bureaucratically engineered course lasting 8 hours and costing close to $100 - that's why we have "ACTS and Prove". Costs more, takes longer, nowhere near as effective - all the hallmarks of government involvement. Also, the "Four Rules" work with pretty much anything that goes bang, from a single shot rifle to an RPG - if that's all they taught, there'd only need to be one course - there goes another 8 hours and close to $100.
 
enefgee said:
It's hard to turn the "Four Rules" into a bureaucratically engineered course lasting 8 hours and costing close to $100 - that's why we have "ACTS and Prove". Costs more, takes longer, nowhere near as effective - all the hallmarks of government involvement. Also, the "Four Rules" work with pretty much anything that goes bang, from a single shot rifle to an RPG - if that's all they taught, there'd only need to be one course - there goes another 8 hours and close to $100.
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Exactly right. A gov PAL course that consisted of a trifold pamphlet would make them look pretty stupid and cost a lot less than the current system. Same goes for the course books. Super large font, huge margins/borders and lots of cheesy drawings. If you want it done in the most expensive and inefficient method possible; go government..

TDC
 
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