Trak-Lock or XS SIght Big Dot for 8.5" Dlask?

[G.Mitchell]

I have an 8.5" Dlask that is currently setup as my woods gun. I haven't been overly impressed with the front sight with slugs.

I am planning to upgrade this gun with a Urbino stock, Dlask railed pump, Bobro short vert grip and either an inforce WML or APL light.

This brings me to the question of new sights. I do not want to run an optic so I am considering either Trak-Lock ghost ring sights or XS Sights Big Dot. This is a woods protection gun so I will be mostly shooting slugs out to maybe 25m or so. I like that with ghost rings I can sight in the shotgun to the load I will be shooting. I am not sure with the big dot how much hold over there might be...

Has anyone here used the trak-lock sights on an 8.5" shotgun? How about the big dot on the 8.5"

Thanks all.

 

[MustangFrank]

I honestly dont think changing sights on a 8.5" barrel will make much difference when you consider a 3" shell only leaves 5" of barrel to stabilize slug. I'm also curious why you would shoot a dangerous animal to protect yourself at 25M. I'm sure I am miss understanding. The length of barrel is probably what's hurting your accuracy.

 

[G.Mitchell]

I honestly dont think changing sights on a 8.5" barrel will make much difference when you consider a 3" shell only leaves 5" of barrel to stabilize slug. I'm also curious why you would shoot a dangerous animal to protect yourself at 25M. I'm sure I am miss understanding. The length of barrel is probably what's hurting your accuracy.

I don't plan to randomly shoot anything unless I am in danger. 25m is no distance at all for a bear to cover at speed. So my goal is to be able to accurately shoot out to that distance if needed.

Accuracy isn't a function of barrel length, sure I am loosing a lot of velocity on the 8.5" but I gain on portability...

 

[gabrielguitars]

Accuracy isn't a function of barrel length,

Well, now, I'm not totally sure about this. When it comes to sight radius, there is no question that shorter barrels lose out in the accuracy department. In the case of a slug essentially rattling down 5.5" of smooth bore versus rattling down 15.5" of smooth bore, I don't know how much is really lost. I think it would be very interesting to shoot 2 different shotguns that essentially the same except for barrel length, and scope them both to see what difference might show. This is beside the point, though. At the ranges you are talking about, accuracy is really irrelevant - placement is key. I would definitely look at ghost rings sights because they are, as you said, adjustable. I know right now my current shotgun shoots low and right with the bead, and that isn't terribly easy to use for me, so I will be changing the sighting system. The main thing is it needs to be consistent and bombproof, which ghost ring sights are.

 

[Deuce-deuce]

I don't plan to randomly shoot anything unless I am in danger. 25m is no distance at all for a bear to cover at speed. So my goal is to be able to accurately shoot out to that distance if needed.

Accuracy isn't a function of barrel length, sure I am loosing a lot of velocity on the 8.5" but I gain on portability...

Lol. I'd love to hear you tell that to the c.o. Some of you guys are too much.

 

[G.Mitchell]

I should have said accuracy has more to it than just barrel length. lol

If a bear is coming at me or posing a risk to me or my family the CO is the least of my worries.

In the US I carried a Glock 20 every time in the woods, we don't have that freedom in Canada. A legally owned short barreled shotgun is my best option here.

Again 25m is not very far away with a bear...

 

[Deuce-deuce]

Again 25m is not very far away with a bear...

Lol. Cgn home of the Canadian bad @$$.
A bear at 25 meters isn't yet a threat. Get an air horn. Yeah yeah, I know it isn't as bad @$$ed or as sweet to bring and brag with your buddys.
Yes, I'm well aware of how fast a bear can run. I've had over twenty bear interactions since may this year... And I've been though an investigation with the c.o.
Next, if this gun is being carried at work...you may want to check into company requirements. Most want you to have front and back sights and use slugs at the very least.

You shoot a bear at 25 yards, it's pretty darn good odds you'll be charged, lose your guns and truck as well as have a whopper legal bill. Bad @$$ed.

 

[jparent]

Avoiding the rest of the comments like the plague, i would say that, for myself, at 25 yards and under, a bead is sufficent to place shots with enough accuracy to deter a bear sized target. YMMV.

That said, at that range, i wouldn't worry about holdover, and just test fire as many slugs as possible, and settle on the one that groups best and closest to "point of aim" (I'd definately look at "low-recoil" loads with an 8" barrel"). Use whatever sights you like best and can get on target and aim QUICKLY if concerned about bear defence. Then practice, ALOT.


Ok, i have to say it, accuracy is a function of many things, the barrel and it's relationship to the receiver, crown, etc all affect accuracy. Length however has little if anything to do with the accuracy of the firearm. It has be routinely proven that short barrels can be more accurate than long ones (everything else being equal).

That said, site radius, and recoil of a short barrel has a profound effect, on the USERS ability to SHOOT said firearm accurately and quickly. It has no bearing on the inherent accuracy of the firearm itself.

 

[Can-down]

Being able to hit your target under stress from 0 out to 25 yards seems like common sense for an animal self defense gun.

A well regulated bead sight should be fine but I don't know how easy it would be to install on your barrel.
What's the issue exactly with the Dlask? To low? Poor visibility?

 

[gabrielguitars]

Ok, i have to say it, accuracy is a function of many things, the barrel and it's relationship to the receiver, crown, etc all affect accuracy. Length however has little if anything to do with the accuracy of the firearm. It has be routinely proven that short barrels can be more accurate than long ones (everything else being equal).

True of rifled arms; smoothbored shotguns with slugs are a different animal.

 

[terez]

Rear sight on a bear defence gun, particularily a 8in gun, seems an answer to a question not asked IMO.

Provided the front sight is properly regulated wrt to windage and elevation......verified by actual use at the intended range using the ammo to be deployed....shot by the user from realistic field shooting positions......a front sight only is fast, user friendly under stress and entirely suitable.
You should be able to reliably put all rds on a large paper plate within 20yds or so.

The other benefits of a front sight only approach are the simple durable aspect so that they are less likely to be knocked out of adjutment, broken or missing entirely when needed. This weapon will be be packed/slung/dropped/roughly handled and generally beaten to crap...the fixed front site if well executed will stand up well....other arrangements not so much.
Also to keep in mind...this weapon should be "bar of soap" smooth and dehorned as much as possible. Retrieving/deploying it under stress from slung/pack/scabbard/sleeping bag/tent etc is challenging enough, sharp edges/protuberences will result in snags/cuts/entanglement and at least slow you down...if not result in fail.


A ramp/raised pedestal welded/soldered in place with a brass or other solid device that will take a beating, is easy to see against fur in poor light is a good approach.
If you must have white/orange etc simply paint the brass or steel device...plastic and other material will break/fall off or otherwise fail eventually under hard use.

IF you intend to stretch the range, use different ammo approaches, actually hunt with it, or expect it to do anything other than the above then adjustable full sights start to make sense/be required.

 

[G.Mitchell]

Lol. Cgn home of the Canadian bad @$$.
A bear at 25 meters isn't yet a threat. Get an air horn. Yeah yeah, I know it isn't as bad @$$ed or as sweet to bring and brag with your buddys.
Yes, I'm well aware of how fast a bear can run. I've had over twenty bear interactions since may this year... And I've been though an investigation with the c.o.
Next, if this gun is being carried at work...you may want to check into company requirements. Most want you to have front and back sights and use slugs at the very least.

You shoot a bear at 25 yards, it's pretty darn good odds you'll be charged, lose your guns and truck as well as have a whopper legal bill. Bad @$$ed.

Why the implication than I'm trying to be a bad ass?

I have in no way showed a disregard for wildlife nor the laws in this country.

I believe a max range of 25m to be a valid question and concern. I never said I'd shoot a bear/cougar/wolf/whatever out that far still that seems like a decent quantifier for my question of which sight to choose.

You see lots of bears, so you might find it commonplace.

This is about sights not laws nor how the CO would handle the situation.

 

[G.Mitchell]

Thank you to all of you that have actually answered my question.

The issue I'm running into with my Dlask sight might be more a physical issue for me. I've had numerous injuries to my hands, wrists, arms, shoulders and back over the years. The issue is getting down on the gun comfortably to get a repeatable sight picture.

I went with the Hogue set to get a nice compact and fast handling gun. However the stock, for me, might be the issue.

The reason I'm going to go to a pistol grip type stock and vertical grip for the pump is a body mechanics decision not a "black scary gun" decision.

I like the sight as it is but struggle to shoot it accurately. I suspect that's me though not the gun.

I feel that a rear sight would give me a better reference point than the unreliable shoulder and cheek weld I'm getting.

Thanks for the feedback all.

 

[Can-down]

Sounds like it's the short stock. If the front blade is well regulated I'd just leave it as is.
Next time you are shooting it try and square your stance up to the target this will bring your shoulder forward and push the gun further forward allowing you to get a lower cheek weld relative to the top of the receiver.
The new magpul 870 stock would be a good fit on that gun.

Pistol grips are good for certain "tactical" roles but for a pack gun I'd go with the sleeker traditional lines.

 

[G.Mitchell]

Thanks. I will try that posture next time I'm out.

I want the traditional look on the short gun, hopefully I can work through the physical limitations since the way I have my gun setup is exactly how I originally planned to set it up.

 

[Can-down]

Houge should sell the sort stock with a spacer kit so it can be fine tuned..... I find them just a hair to short unless you are wearing a pack or heavy jacket.
I realize they were designed for people wearing body armor but a series of spacers between the pad and the stock would be cheap,easy and allow custom fitting.
I tend to just slip a limbsaver slip on pad over it to get the length I prefer and a softer pad..... win-win.

 

[Can-down]

Here's a picture of Nine's short 870 clone with a magpul on it,

 

[G.Mitchell]

Thanks that stock looks great on the red grizzly

I will look into stock options before I worry about a new sight system.

Thank you all for your feedback.

 

[grelmar]

This might be rambling a bit, but bear with me (pun intended)...

I have the DA Grizzly in 12.5", which I bought specifically as a bear protection gun. The problem I had with it was that with the stock bead, my point of impact was about a foot high at 20 yards.

I bought the XS Big Dot after doing a bit of reading around here, as others indicated that with the big dot being a bit higher, it fixed the POA/POI issues. I wanted to avoid ghost ring style sights, because they struck me as to bulky and snag prone on a scabbard, gun sock, or whatever. I wanted to keep it with as clean of lines as possible.

The big dot did a very good job of fixing the POA/POI issues, and I was surprised at how much better it made the gun for quick pointing. It wasn't really what I was after (I just wanted to fix the POA/POI issue), but that big dot really draws they eye to it and makes it easier to aim. I can (mostly) pick off a softball sized target with slugs now at about 10yds, and dinner plate accurate out to 25 - which is plenty accurate for the intended purpose.

I also put some thought into my standard load for bear defence, and ended up coming up with a mix load. I put 00 Buck on top, with 3 slugs as follow up. My thinking is that with 00 as the first round out, it increases my hit probability on that first shot, when the steaming mound that just appeared in my shorts is going to be detracting from my ability to aim well. 00 won't kill the bear, or even stop it, but it should do a good job of staggering it long enough to regain my composure and be able to get in some more precise follow up shots with the slugs.

FWIW, a little backstory on why I decided last year to start carrying a bush/bear gun, it might be help you understand my reasoning a bit:

I'm in my early 40s, and have been camping/hiking in the foothills and interior since I was about 8. Over that span of time, I've actually encountered grizzlies about a half dozen times, at ranges close enough "to be seriously concerned" about it. The first time was on a youth camping trip when I was 13 and, I kid you not, a bear (and it might of been a black bear, it was dark and I was so terrified I don't trust my own memories), strolled through the bush, stuck it's head into the lean-too, and gave a quick sniff of a half dozen kids my age, before deciding not to bother and moving on. The combined smell of all the crap pouring into a half dozen sleeping bags might have warded it off.

4 or 5 other times it was very typical type encounters. I'd be hiking along with others, and we'd round a corner in a trail, come to a T or X crossing in a trail, or step out into a clearing, and... Well just there it was. Invariably under 50 yards, and usually within 25 yards.

Every single time, the bear would give us a look over of complete indifference, and then carry on about its business.

In a lot of areas, the browns and blacks have become very habituated to people, especially in the National Parks and more heavily hiked areas. They aren't as big on avoiding people as they used to be.

Until last year, I always just stuck to the basics. Try and make a bit of noise as you're hiking, don't surprise them. Wear the dinner bells (old hiker joke), or a couple of loosely tied pots to your pack and let them clang away as you hike. To a certain extent, I had gotten a bit casual about it (stupid - casual and blase is what gets guys who have the experience and should know better killed in any of a hundred different ways in the woods).

Last year early in the spring I had my mind thoroughly changed on the subject with another encounter.

Essentially, it was the same as every other time I've come across them. I came out of a trail onto a cut-line, and there, not more than 30 yards off, was a wet and scraggly looking brown. It was Easter long weekend and raining, so the bear hadn't gotten a good feed on since the winter yet, and it didn't look all that impressed with the world. And it's reaction to me and my hiking partner?

It looked at us, gave a couple of casual sniffs, and wandered off about it's business. Exactly like my previous experiences.

The one thing that was different was my hiking partner. When you have your 4 year old daughter at your side and you experience this, your perspective takes a radical change. Ordered my shorty when we got back to town.

Anyway, dunno if this helps, but there it is for you. Hope you can find something that works out for you.

 

[Boomer]

First I would like to say that for a gun that is intended to be used in high stress scenarios far from the reaches of civilization, these short barrel marvels scare the crap out of me. The idea that I could have my hand slip off the slide and extend past the muzzle just as the gun fires makes me beyond uncomfortable. But that's not the question, so I'll try to get past it.

The problem with a bead sight is that with a very short barrel, unless its mounted on a pedestal equal in height to that of the receiver, the gun will shoot high. Even with the bead mounted high enough to compensate for the height of the receiver, the hit repeatability and your general marksmanship is absolutely determined by having the exact same cheek weld from shot to shot, every time you shoulder the gun. If you look at the sight a bit differently, the shot goes wide. This is where the ghost ring is truly beneficial. It forces you to get your cheek down on the stock, to a point where you can see the front sight through the aperture. This actually makes sight alignment faster than with a bead alone.

I hope the OP practices at 25 yards and in. At 25 yards the bear is of no threat to you, although you should be vigilant of any changes in his demeanor, or direction of travel. The purpose of shooting is to prevent him from touching you, because if he can't touch you he can't hurt you, but at 25 yards many things can happen, none of which threatens you. The best reason to shoot at longer ranges, such as 25 or even 50, is to kill a bear that was wounded at closer range and is attempting to escape.

In addition to knowing when to shoot, one must know where to shoot. A chest shot is a killing shot, but not a stopping shot. Killing the bear doesn't do you much good if the last thing he does is maul you. To stop him you have to hit the brain or the spine, both are tricky shots on a moving target, and that is the primary reason why you don't shoot early. The closer he is, the less his movements take your gun off target. Understand that the brain is only the width of the snout, and is no easier to hit than say the spinal cord.

Get some good books on bear defense such as the ones by James Garry Shelton and Stephen Herrero, and study up. Get out and practice with that shotgun, but don't assume because you can do it at 25 you can do at 5 feet. However this thing happens, it probably won't be as you expect it to, and unless you've pre-programmed yourself to react a certain way, the odds are against you. Consider putting a 16" barrel on that smoke wagon.