Transporting question. Sorry.

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Pyd

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Had my pistol for quite a while, never been to a range. I just called the CFO for clarification, he instantly added stuff to my licence so I can transport, something about when I got it I didn't have those conditions. Very pleasant phone call, as always.
Anyhow, I understand the basics of transport, but I see on the RCMP site the wording has me wondering about the case I keep it in. I have a few, but my favorite is a thick nylon case and I am not sure if it fits in this statement "Lock the firearms in a sturdy, non-transparent container".
Heavy duty nylon fit in this?
Thanks.
 
I think sturdy is the operative word here yet you have to define what sturdy is then what a LEO thinks is sturdy.
It could be made of ballistic nylon with Kevlar but may not be considered "sturdy". I use a plastic pistol case I got for 10 bucks on sale at princess auto. It could be, like the fancy ones, pried open but it still is sturdy-ish. Sorry this is no help but it is what it is, a response.
 
Any lawyer will tell you, whether it is laws, or rules for a club or range, the more specific you are, the less wiggle room you have with regards to interpretation
 
A few things things.

Firstly the RCMP site is not the law. When looking to see what the law is use the justice site, the RCMP site has been purposely wrong and misleading in the past. They can put what ever they want on their site, that does not make it the law.

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/f-11.6/

The law says nothing about "sturdy"

(c) it is in a locked container that is made of an opaque material and is of such strength, construction and nature that it cannot readily be broken open or into or accidentally opened during transportation
Click to expand...

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-98-209/page-2.html#h-9

The operative wording that makes this vague is readily be broken open or into. And as far as I know has yet to be tested in court, so that could mean anything. With zippered cases I belive you are going to have a really hard time convicing a judge that they are not readily broken into when they are shown this by the poilce:


Many gun cases can be opened in this manner simply using your finger. Just be aware of that and decide if you are comfortable using them.

The second thing you need to be aware of is that there are only two situations where the CFO can attach the automatic ATT conditions to your license and calling them is not one. They can only be attached on renewal or on transfer of a restricted. And unless your PAL says special conditions attached and you have a conditions sheet listing your conditions you do not have any.

Automatic authorization to transport — licence renewal

(2.1) Subject to subsection (2.3), an individ#ual who holds a licence authorizing the individual to possess prohibited firearms or restricted firearms must, if the licence is renewed, be authorized to transport them within the individual’s province of residence

(a) to and from all shooting clubs and shooting ranges that are approved under section 29;
(b) to and from any place a peace officer, firearms officer or chief firearms officer is located, for verification, registration or disposal in accordance with this Act or Part III of the Criminal Code;
(c) to and from a business that holds a licence authorizing it to repair or appraise prohibited firearms or restricted firearms;
(d) to and from a gun show; and
(e) to a port of exit in order to take them outside Canada, and from a port of entry.

Automatic authorization to transport — transfer

(2.2) Subject to subsection (2.3), if a chief firearms officer has authorized the transfer of a prohibited firearm or a restricted firearm to an individual who holds a licence authorizing the individual to possess prohibited firearms or restricted firearms, the individual must be authorized

(a) to transport the firearm within the individual’s province of residence from the place where the individual acquires it to the place where they may possess it under section 17; and
(b) to transport their prohibited firearms and restricted firearms within the individual’s province of residence to and from the places referred to in any of paragraphs (2.1)(a) to (e).
Click to expand...

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/f-11.6/page-4.html#h-11

And lastly for those that want to stick their heads in the sand about their conditions I will just leave this here:

Onus on the accused

117.11 Where, in any proceedings for an offence under any of sections 89, 90, 91, 93, 97, 101, 104 and 105, any question arises as to whether a person is the holder of an authorization, a licence or a registration certificate, the onus is on the accused to prove that the person is the holder of the authorization, licence or registration certificate.
Click to expand...

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/page-20.html#docCont

Just some food for thought

Shawn
 
Last edited:
That zipper tampering is an eye opener.

I've been using the soft pistol cases (locked) and it goes into the range bag, which is also locked. The pistols also have trigger locks installed.
 
Thank you for taking the time to post that, Shawn.
I guess I'll just toss my nylon bag in a plastic ammo box for transport, only take a couple extra seconds.
What concerns me about your post is the electronic conditions. I am going to call again today and look deeper,with a different phone guy. Perhaps ask for email confirmation of what I was told, or a reference to what he was reading to me. I spoke to 2 other people this week who had identical experiences.
Again, thank you for taking the time to produce such an informative, factual reply. It is appreciated.


shawn said:
I few things things.

Firstly the RCMP site is not the law. When looking to see what the law is use the justice site, the RCMP site has been purposely wrong and misleading in the past. They can put what ever they want on their site, that does not make it the law.

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/f-11.6/

The law says nothing about "sturdy"



http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-98-209/page-2.html#h-9

The operative wording that makes this vague is readily be broken open or into. And as far as I know has yet to be tested in court, so that could mean anything. With zippered cases I belive you are going to have a really hard time convicing a judge that they are not readily broken into when they are shown this by the poilce:


Many gun cases can be opened in this manner simply using your finger. Just be aware of that and decide if you are comfortable using them.

The second thing you need to be aware of is that there are only two situations where the CFO can attach the automatic ATT conditions to your license and calling them is not one. They can only be attached on renewal or on transfer of a restricted. And unless your PAL says special conditions attached and you have a conditions sheet listing your conditions you do not have any.



http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/f-11.6/page-4.html#h-11

And lastly for those that want to stick their heads in the sand about their conditions I will just leave this here:



http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/page-20.html#docCont

Just some food for thought

Shawn
Click to expand...
 
Pyd said:
Thank you for taking the time to post that, Shawn.
I guess I'll just toss my nylon bag in a plastic ammo box for transport, only take a couple extra seconds.
What concerns me about your post is the electronic conditions. I am going to call again today and look deeper,with a different phone guy. Perhaps ask for email confirmation of what I was told, or a reference to what he was reading to me. I spoke to 2 other people this week who had identical experiences.
Again, thank you for taking the time to produce such an informative, factual reply. It is appreciated.
Click to expand...

No problem :cheers:

The reason you will see people fight things like this tooth and nail is it is something they think works in their favor. That and probably a good 90% of people refuse to actually read the firearms act.

Shawn
 
Shawn.. mine says "standard conditions" on the PAL (thanks to the OP, the only reason i checked was becaus of this thread) . I just had a transfer done in Aug, one done last winter,and one out of my name last fall. if the transfers were authorized. i interpret what you posted to mean that because the transfer was authorized by the cfo, its also an authorization to transport. The bolded parts are what im talking about. Our laws are such a soup sandwich.....

Automatic authorization to transport — licence renewal

(2.1) Subject to subsection (2.3), an individ#ual who holds a licence authorizing the individual to possess prohibited firearms or restricted firearms must, if the licence is renewed, be authorized to transport them within the individual’s province of residence

(a) to and from all shooting clubs and shooting ranges that are approved under section 29;
(b) to and from any place a peace officer, firearms officer or chief firearms officer is located, for verification, registration or disposal in accordance with this Act or Part III of the Criminal Code;
(c) to and from a business that holds a licence authorizing it to repair or appraise prohibited firearms or restricted firearms;
(d) to and from a gun show; and
(e) to a port of exit in order to take them outside Canada, and from a port of entry.

Automatic authorization to transport — transfer

(2.2) Subject to subsection (2.3), if a chief firearms officer has authorized the transfer of a prohibited firearm or a restricted firearm to an individual who holds a licence authorizing the individual to possess prohibited firearms or restricted firearms, the individual must be authorized

(a) to transport the firearm within the individual’s province of residence from the place where the individual acquires it to the place where they may possess it under section 17; and
(b) to transport their prohibited firearms and restricted firearms within the individual’s province of residence to and from the places referred to in any of paragraphs (2.1)(a) to (e).
 
shawn said:
A few things things.

Firstly the RCMP site is not the law. When looking to see what the law is use the justice site, the RCMP site has been purposely wrong and misleading in the past. They can put what ever they want on their site, that does not make it the law.

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/f-11.6/

The law says nothing about "sturdy"



http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-98-209/page-2.html#h-9

The operative wording that makes this vague is readily be broken open or into. And as far as I know has yet to be tested in court, so that could mean anything. With zippered cases I belive you are going to have a really hard time convicing a judge that they are not readily broken into when they are shown this by the poilce:


Many gun cases can be opened in this manner simply using your finger. Just be aware of that and decide if you are comfortable using them.Shawn
Click to expand...

They are obviously valid concerns and useful info, but I am comfortable with a zippered cordura case. I own plastic hard cases you could open with a pen or punch as well. As the video demonstrates, you are responsible for your luggage at all times, same with a case containing a firearm. Mine are never left unattended. Do you think the law would go any easier on you if you had a locked pelican case (firearms locked within) stolen from your vehicle? How would you prove to them that it was being transported according to regulations? Why did you leave your vehicle or bag unattended? Did you not drive straight to the range?? You would probably charged with some sort of offence regardless because many aspects of the FA are vague and open to interpretation.

As said, none of this has been tested in court and one of the many reasons I recently purchased insurance for such a thing. Sad, but necessary, IMO.
 
Further to Shawn's post, I think that even if the new law technically grants an "Automatic authorization to transport" for a license renewal or transfer I'd want to have that in writing before attempting to transport anything. The Conditions form I received with my PAL renewal in addition the the transport provisions under "Special Conditions" also states "Carry this document with your license card as you must be able to produce this document on demand if requested by a peace officer or other authority" I wouldn't want to have a conversation about how "It's ok I talked to someone on the phone about it."
 
crash277 said:
Shawn.. mine says "standard conditions" on the PAL (thanks to the OP, the only reason i checked was becaus of this thread) . I just had a transfer done in Aug, one done last winter,and one out of my name last fall. if the transfers were authorized. i interpret what you posted to mean that because the transfer was authorized by the cfo, its also an authorization to transport. The bolded parts are what im talking about. Our laws are such a soup sandwich.....
Click to expand...

You should, the issue is section 117.1 of the criminal code where the onus is on you to prove that you hold that authorization. How do you do that if your PAL does not list that you have special conditions and you do not have a conditions sheet listing the conditions attached to your PAL?

Phone them and ask for your new card they should have sent it too you with your first transfer

Will it be an issue? Probably not, same as the case thing.

But you need to be aware of them and decided if you are comfortable with that level of risk.

Shawn
 
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