Trap gun POI vs Field gun POI

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calvados.boulard

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Ok, so this may be a stupid question, and I may be wording it terribly. Hopefully this makes sense to someone:

So in the debate between getting a dedicated trap gun to use for every clay sport, or getting a sporting gun for the same purposes I've read that you can adjust the POI higher by raising the comb.

I'm assuming (and looking to be corrected if I'm mistaken) that the rib on trap guns are setup such that the POI is naturally higher. Thus one could increase from that baseline to get an even higher POI, but I'm wondering is there a limit as to how LOW you can adjust the POI. The reason I ask about lowering the POI is (and looking for clarification here) for other clay games such as SC, Skeet etc.

Is the higher POI on a trap gun a source of limitation for how low you can adjust the POI through comb adjustments, and thus a limitation on how effective a trap gun would be in the other clay sports?

Is a trap gun a good choice for an 'every clay game' gun, or would a sporter or field gun make more sense?

Is my thinking right, or am I completely out to lunch?

Thanks everyone,
Cal.
 
The only stupid question is the one that you didn't ask.

No target shotgun should have a pattern lower than 50/50. The idea of a higher shooting trap gun is that you are supposed to be shooting a rising target ... so, you have a gun that shoots higher. I have shot trap guns that shot flat (50/50) and I have shot trap guns that shoot over 120% high. I know of trap guns that supposedly shoot 300% high. So, you see there can be a pretty wide variation.

The vast majority of older trap guns will shoot a pattern of closer to 60/40 and 70/30. The idea is to float the target just above the bead or barrel.

If your main game is trap, then buy a trap gun. You really can't be certain where a gun is shooting until you benchrest it and put it on paper. I have also seen extra wood removed from the adjustable comb cut out area to lower the comb. Unless you get into something unusual, you will never need to lower the POI of most trap guns to shoot skeet or sporting.
 
calvados.boulard said:
Thanks so much Beretta687EELL. That's exactly what I was looking to find out.

Thanks again,
Cal.
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This fellow that calls himself Beretta687EELL is on these questions fast and is on the money about 99.9% of the time IMO. If his ATA average matches his answers average(AAA cla$$) I'm hanging up my trap gun and heading to the rifle bench! Rimfire that is, he can't get any reloading advantage that way!! :p
 
the spank said:
This fellow that calls himself Beretta687EELL is on these questions fast and is on the money about 99.9% of the time IMO. If his ATA average matches his answers average(AAA cla$$) I'm hanging up my trap gun and heading to the rifle bench! Rimfire that is, he can't get any reloading advantage that way!! :p
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Thanks Spank ... alas I have to hang my head in shame as my averages are not where they should be ... I lack the mental part of the game. But, at the end of the day, I want to come back and do it again and the best part of the equation is the friends that I have made.
 
Beretta687EELL said:
Thanks Spank ... alas I have to hang my head in shame as my averages are not where they should be ... I lack the mental part of the game. But, at the end of the day, I want to come back and do it again and the best part of the equation is the friends that I have made.
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For me the mental part of the game has never been to compete against the field but to compete against myself. I had a buddy years ago that was an awesome trap shooter, he used to say it's me against that machine and that machine is not going to beat me. I guess we all have varying ways of focusing on the game. My lower average seasons were always years with far too much club politics involvement and I ended up walking away from shooting all together for a number of years. A couple were also gun changes, not hard to tell looking back which gun fit!! f:P: Too hard to remain focused when you're running the shoot and trying to shoot at the same time. That's ok for fun shoots but not for registered. I think we all want to achieve our best scores when it really counts?
I went back out last year since I am in a new town and am avoiding getting involved beyond shooting and enjoying the company of my fellow shooters. I plan on travelling this year to shoots and am hoping that I can take in the SK, MB and ON provincials during my holidays in one shot this summer. I am also planning on attending Canadians. Hope to see some of you guys there.
 
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I just purchased a remington 1100 competition with a wood stock & adjustable comb on the weekend. I only shoot trap therefore I have it set to shoot higher for that sport. Though it can also be used for skeet or SC. They only make the synthetic version now but trying to order/find one in Canada is worse than pulling teeth. I'd seriously look into something like that which could be used for all the shooting disciplines!
-Nate
 
topgun62 said:
I just purchased a remington 1100 competition with a wood stock & adjustable comb on the weekend. I only shoot trap therefore I have it set to shoot higher for that sport. Though it can also be used for skeet or SC. They only make the synthetic version now but trying to order/find one in Canada is worse than pulling teeth. I'd seriously look into something like that which could be used for all the shooting disciplines!
-Nate
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There is a fellow on trapshooters.com selling a wood stock/forend set from the same kind of gun as yours (1100 competition). It appears brand new in the pics. Adjustable comb stock and forend. He wants $330 shipped for the set.
 
For an all clay sports shotgun I would be looking at a Fabarm XLR5 , Beretta A400 multitartet.

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So I read through this and had a question I don't understand.

I have a Beretta 391 and it patterns 70/30 if not a bit higher. Great for trap from what the old guys at the club say, but I can't hit squat in skeet, especially the crossing left and right stuff. I'm worried the pattern is making me learning to shoot skeet and eventually sporting clays this summer more difficult (besides me being very very green). The guys I shoot with swap guns before switching to skeet and they seem (I should ask, but I read this thread and it made sense... in my head) to go toward shorter barrel field style guns.

short form question: trap pattern vs. skeet vs. sporting clays?
 
jjj99 said:
So I read through this and had a question I don't understand.

I have a Beretta 391 and it patterns 70/30 if not a bit higher. Great for trap from what the old guys at the club say, but I can't hit squat in skeet, especially the crossing left and right stuff. I'm worried the pattern is making me learning to shoot skeet and eventually sporting clays this summer more difficult (besides me being very very green). The guys I shoot with swap guns before switching to skeet and they seem (I should ask, but I read this thread and it made sense... in my head) to go toward shorter barrel field style guns.

short form question: trap pattern vs. skeet vs. sporting clays?
Click to expand...

The lead in skeet on post 4 is 4 1/2 feet ... is it possible that you are shooting behind the targets? Also, high house targets are falling, so, you need to get under them. Worst case scenario, you might have to buy another gun ... aw, shucks :))
 
What a terrible terrible thing ;)

I bought my dad for his birthday an 1187 and it shoots flat to me. Just wondering if I should find another one or would a simple adjustable comb to my beretta work.

just some thoughts.
 
So if you're 70/30 at 35 yards your poi is 6" above poa at 35 yards. That means at 21 yards (the distance you break a crossing post 4) you are roughly 4" high. That shouldn't cause you any issues. Try leading it more. You need approx. 4 feet of lead at post 4.
 
I never cared for shooting my trap guns on the skeet field. My hits were always on top of the target with what I considered poor breaks. With a flat shooting gun(50/50) and my style of shooting my breaks were a nice even crushed target. Just the way I learned and my style of shooting I guess but Sporting Clays or Skeet for me is field gun country.
 
jjj99 said:
So I read through this and had a question I don't understand.

I have a Beretta 391 and it patterns 70/30 if not a bit higher. Great for trap from what the old guys at the club say, but I can't hit squat in skeet, especially the crossing left and right stuff. I'm worried the pattern is making me learning to shoot skeet and eventually sporting clays this summer more difficult (besides me being very very green). The guys I shoot with swap guns before switching to skeet and they seem (I should ask, but I read this thread and it made sense... in my head) to go toward shorter barrel field style guns.

short form question: trap pattern vs. skeet vs. sporting clays?
Click to expand...
70/30 is a good pattern for trap but I agree it is too high for the other games. 60/40 at most for me, preferably 55/45. Can you adjust the stock lower using the shims?

One of the drawbacks of trap is that it is a more specialized game compared to the others. Skeet, sporting, five-stand, FITASC can all be successfully shot with the same gun. Trap generally favours a higher shooting, heavier gun. FWIW, when I shoot trap I use my sporting gun but then I am not competing in trap. Were I to get serious about trap I'd buy a dedicated trap gun and not shoot other games.

But pattern is only a small part of the game. As a shooter who is "very, very green" you might consider finding a good instructor to teach you the games. It may be that you can shoot all the games with your current gun.
 
RickR1100 said:
How do you guys find the pattern? Paper? Painted steel plate?

And what distances?
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Patterning is done for several of reasons ... Point of Aim, Point of Impact, choke performance & gun fit.

A steel pattern plate is nice, but each shot is whitewasd over so you have no record ...paper can be saved and the initial cost to set it up is cheaper, not to mention, the location
moved a lot easier. A 4'x4" - 2"X4" frame with 48" builders paper works pretty well.

To check for Point of Aim, (does the gun shoot straight ?) shoot at (exactly) 40 yards from the muzzle from a bench, taking care to perfectly line up the beads.
Same for choke performance for all gauges except the 40 bore which is done at 25 yards. Capture the POI around your aimed at center within a 30" circle.

Skeet shooters tyically pattern at 21 yards ... the distance to the crossing stake with their "favourite" choke and No. 9's.
Some 70-75 % of the pellets should be evenly distributed within the 30" circle.

Trap shooters usually pattern at 34 yards ... about the average distance ATA targets are broken from the 16 yard line.
Again a nice dense pattern of 7-1/2's or 8's.

For gun fit, (Point of Impact ... does the gun shoot where I look ?)) pattern with a tight choke at exactly 16 yards (from the shooters eye) ... there are math formulae to determine how much stock change is needed,
but simply put, every 1 inch change at 16 yards requires 1/16" change at the point of eye placement. The 16 yards is coincidental and has nothing to do with
the "16 yard line) at ATA Trap. For gun fit, patterning is done from your normal shooting stance, bringing the gun up quickly to shoulder and firing at the paper
just as soon as one h=gets a good sight picture. Do not "aim", but rather shoot quickly at the center of the paper, as if you were trying to hit say an imaginary
bird that had just flushed.

I to find a relatively flat shooting gun is required for Skeet, Sporting Clays, 5-Stand & Skeet ... 55/45 to 60/40.
For Trap I find I like something in the 70/30 to 75/25 range. Once tried a gun at a full pattern high ... not good for me, but a few others like it.
 
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