Tricked out 10/22 vs factory cz455 varmint
- Thread starter Rivardo
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wayupnorth
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
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- Northern Alberta
you would have to do this.
$1500 spent.
decide if you want a bolt action or a semi auto, that is the only decision you really need to make.
$1500 spent.
decide if you want a bolt action or a semi auto, that is the only decision you really need to make.
wayupnorth
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Northern Alberta
Blaze Total: $1467.03
Receiver (Dlask) 206.79
Barrel 18.5” (Dlask) 194.13
Stock Blaze Pro Varmint (Boyd) 269.42
Compensator XB5 (Dlask) 67.78
Bolt Scalloped (Kidd) 172.40
Charging Handle (Kidd) 56.30
Buffer Bolt (Kidd) 14.99
Trigger 2 Stage (Kidd) 378.90
V Block (Dlask) 30.45
Trigger Pins (Dlask) 20.12
Stock Pin (hex head) (Dlask) 6.06
Receiver Cross Pins Threaded (Kidd) 49.69
your optics will of course be on top of that so figure in another $500-$800 depending on how nice you wanna go.
wayupnorth
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Northern Alberta
to answer your original question, what would you have to do to make your 10/22 do what your CZ does.
youd have to sell it and build one from scratch.
hehehehehe
but its fun!!!
seriously though, i have both a CZ452 Varmint and the above 10/22.
i take out whatever one im in the mood for.
semi auto or bolt.
a stock semi auto will never come close to a bolt gun for accuracy, its just the nature of the beast that is semi auto, your giving up some accuracy for the semi automatic function.
youd have to sell it and build one from scratch.
hehehehehe
but its fun!!!
seriously though, i have both a CZ452 Varmint and the above 10/22.
i take out whatever one im in the mood for.
semi auto or bolt.
a stock semi auto will never come close to a bolt gun for accuracy, its just the nature of the beast that is semi auto, your giving up some accuracy for the semi automatic function.
yep 10/22 targets are fun to build, I also have both and I'm building a custom 10/22 on a Magnum Research frame & graphite barrel.
I have replaced a few parts and installed these parts
Kidd trigger kit
Kidd firing pin
Kidd auto bolt release
Kidd buffer
Kidd extractor
I have another 10/22 on EE with a Tacsol fluted threaded barrel & Hogue OD stock, I found the Magnum Research graphite barrel lighter then the Tacsol by 37 grams.
My goal was to build a lightweight tack driving 10/22 under 4lbs.
I'm also about to build a CZ 455 varmint in .22lr but still have to locate a CZ455 to build on.
I have replaced a few parts and installed these parts
Kidd trigger kit
Kidd firing pin
Kidd auto bolt release
Kidd buffer
Kidd extractor
I have another 10/22 on EE with a Tacsol fluted threaded barrel & Hogue OD stock, I found the Magnum Research graphite barrel lighter then the Tacsol by 37 grams.
My goal was to build a lightweight tack driving 10/22 under 4lbs.
I'm also about to build a CZ 455 varmint in .22lr but still have to locate a CZ455 to build on.
Sell the 10/22. You already have a gun that shoots well, and are contemplating selling it to dump allot of money into a fixer-upper..crossing your fingers that it MIGHT shoot as well as the CZ. I honestly don't see the appeal of that process, but clearly lots of guys do.
So..hypothetically...if you can get $500+ for the CZ, and are flirting with the idea of dropping another $1,000 into it to get it up to wayupnorth's specs..safe to say you have a budget of $1,000 to play with? If that's the case, sell both guns...add your $1,000 to it and buy an Anschutz and a nice scope. You might well see accuracy that trumps the CZ, and a gun that will hold it's value.
So..hypothetically...if you can get $500+ for the CZ, and are flirting with the idea of dropping another $1,000 into it to get it up to wayupnorth's specs..safe to say you have a budget of $1,000 to play with? If that's the case, sell both guns...add your $1,000 to it and buy an Anschutz and a nice scope. You might well see accuracy that trumps the CZ, and a gun that will hold it's value.
^ This! If you want an accurate, quality gun, this is the way to go.
If you like of idea of pouring ridiculous amounts of money into a 10/22, to end up with a gun that's almost as accurate as a stock CZ, then have at it. Then you can buy a Honda Civic and start changing wheels, tires, motors, etc....and end up with a car that costs as much as a Corvette, is maybe kinda neat, but is still...a Honda Civic.
If you like of idea of pouring ridiculous amounts of money into a 10/22, to end up with a gun that's almost as accurate as a stock CZ, then have at it. Then you can buy a Honda Civic and start changing wheels, tires, motors, etc....and end up with a car that costs as much as a Corvette, is maybe kinda neat, but is still...a Honda Civic.
The 10/22's are fun to shoot once you get them shooting well. I have several good shooting bolts so to have an accurate semi was something I wanted. I can't remember all of my costs because I did this years ago but I'm sure I spent at least a grand all in.
Don't do it if you are that tight on cash and want the most accurate you can get. For the same or less, better off with a bolt gun IMO.
Factory 10/22 with a Kidd barrel, Kidd 2 stage trigger, VQ extractor in an Archangel stock.
Recent attempt at the 50 yard challenge.
Don't do it if you are that tight on cash and want the most accurate you can get. For the same or less, better off with a bolt gun IMO.
Factory 10/22 with a Kidd barrel, Kidd 2 stage trigger, VQ extractor in an Archangel stock.
Recent attempt at the 50 yard challenge.
This makes a great deal of sense.
The alternative would be to sell the 10/22, and buy a Lilja barrel and a Boyds Pro Varmint stock for the CZ. Get it pillared and bedded. Do some trigger improvement, either a Yodave or a Rifle Basix. You're now spending Anschutz money or more and it should be shooting close to an Anschutz.
I don't recommend drop-in barrels for the CZ 455, the platform is known to have headspace issues in .22 LR. Lilja knows this and if you were in the USA you could send it back to them for free adjustment however we do not enjoy this arrangement in Canada with the Export Laws. So you can get the *worst case* drop-in barrel that needs adjustment (ask me all about how I know that...) and with the additional gunsmith fees you may as well have just started with a blank. Lilja currently uses a Bentz chamber on their 455 barrels, not exactly a match chamber for a bolt action. They used to use match chambers several years ago and they dealt with the headspace issue better than the Bentz.
It's not much more $$ upfront to get a blank (Shilen, Benchmark, Lilja or maker of your choice) then have a smith custom fit it to your action. Cone breech setup permanently attached headspaced to your spec. Pillared and bedded you'll be shooting .2s and .3s guaranteed (better is up to your skills and ammo).
Perhaps an exaggeration based on your unfortunate experience. As you know there is a 455 guru on RFC who has performed many very successful Lilja-CZ 455 marriages and does not advise against them. The number that don't work as they should is indeed quite small. Custom fitting a blank is always work best left to smiths who are experienced with both the rifle and barrel and this adds to the already significant cost of the barrel blank itself.
In any case, when I suggested a Lilja barrel as an alternative (which costs at least $800) in addition to pillars and bedding in a Pro Varmint stock with trigger work, I intended to make obvious the wisdom of getting an Anschutz in the first place.
No exaggeration, Mr. Don has stated my exact scenario as the reason why he's moved on to custom fitting blanks instead of doing drop ins. He does say the worst case scenario is that the drop in barrel just needs some custom fitment to the action, ergo for the adjustment fee might as well have started with a blank. Just slapping in a drop-in and expecting stellar results is a fool's errand on a 455, it needs all the supporting mods and likely custom fitment.
In his experience, a custom fitted match barreled 452/455 will outperform a factory Anschütz 64. It will equal a custom barreled 64. I can tell you based on my observations with a borescope an Anschütz factory barrel will not run with a custom match barrel as they are not hand lapped to be free of tool marks.
No doubt the value of customizing a 455 is eroded here in Canada due to the cost of getting the parts and there are not as many smith's who specialize in this kind of work. A perfectly done 455 with a little DIY bedding will cost the same as a new Annie 64 and get you a little better performance. You could likewise customize a 64 action and get the same performance but with all the Anschütz refinements to fit and finish plus an excellent adjustable factory trigger.
The question becomes whaddya wanna do and how much you wanna spend? I'll bet once my 455 Lilja is properly set up my 64 MSR won't beat it
Talked to the shop today and it'll be ready to pick up by the end of the week.
In his experience, a custom fitted match barreled 452/455 will outperform a factory Anschütz 64. It will equal a custom barreled 64. I can tell you based on my observations with a borescope an Anschütz factory barrel will not run with a custom match barrel as they are not hand lapped to be free of tool marks.
With a custom fit I haven't had one fail yet and with a drop in, a shoulder set back is the worst case scenario. I don't think I'll ever go all out on a factory barrel setup again but if I do, I'd buy it back if it didn't shoot every time
A 455 can also do it but you gotta know what your getting into first. A drop in barrel from Lilja has a Bentz chamber. Not the greatest chamber for all out accuracy but non of the cons of an all out match chamber either. A set back on the shoulder may be required for best accuracy. A custom fit permanently attached will yield the best results every time. Some tweaks to the bolt, bedding, aftermarket trigger, and stock is what it will take to get it done.
IMO everyone should have both
No doubt the value of customizing a 455 is eroded here in Canada due to the cost of getting the parts and there are not as many smith's who specialize in this kind of work. A perfectly done 455 with a little DIY bedding will cost the same as a new Annie 64 and get you a little better performance. You could likewise customize a 64 action and get the same performance but with all the Anschütz refinements to fit and finish plus an excellent adjustable factory trigger.
The question becomes whaddya wanna do and how much you wanna spend? I'll bet once my 455 Lilja is properly set up my 64 MSR won't beat it
Talked to the shop today and it'll be ready to pick up by the end of the week.No exaggeration, Mr. Don has stated my exact scenario as the reason why he's moved on to custom fitting blanks instead of doing drop ins. He does say the worst case scenario is that the drop in barrel just needs some custom fitment to the action, ergo for the adjustment fee might as well have started with a blank. Just slapping in a drop-in and expecting stellar results is a fool's errand on a 455, it needs all the supporting mods and likely custom fitment.
In his experience, a custom fitted match barreled 452/455 will outperform a factory Anschütz 64. It will equal a custom barreled 64. I can tell you based on my observations with a borescope an Anschütz factory barrel will not run with a custom match barrel as they are not hand lapped to be free of tool marks.
No doubt the value of customizing a 455 is eroded here in Canada due to the cost of getting the parts and there are not as many smith's who specialize in this kind of work. A perfectly done 455 with a little DIY bedding will cost the same as a new Annie 64 and get you a little better performance. You could likewise customize a 64 action and get the same performance but with all the Anschütz refinements to fit and finish plus an excellent adjustable factory trigger.
The question becomes whaddya wanna do and how much you wanna spend? I'll bet once my 455 Lilja is properly set up my 64 MSR won't beat it
I wonder how many Anschutz barrels wouldn't meet the standard set by your experience? Anschutz barrels on 64 action rifles are no different than those on 54 action sporter rifles.
If I understand djdilliodon, he says the worst case scenario is where a shoulder set back is needed (your Lilja's situation?), but it is not a common problem as he successfully used Lilja barrels for some time before his first Shilen experiment, which was not so long ago.
In any event, buying a Shilen or Benchmark and having it custom fitted to a 455 action is surely much more costly than the Lilja, which alone will likely cost over $800. And to take fuller advantage of such a barrel -- Shilen, Benchmark, or Lilja -- would likely require a stock better than the factory 455 stock, even if it is pillared and bedded. That adds nearly $300 (or more, depending on the aftermarket stock) to the total. The price tag already exceeds any 64 action Anschutz. Of course to mitigate the expense it's possible to sell the factory stock and factory barrel.
As you observe, the question becomes how much do you want to spend and what do you want. With the difficulty of finding someone who can reliably do the work needed with the Shilen or Benchmark barrels, that option seems less attractive. On top of that, as I think you've noted elsewhere, the "tricked out" 455 is unlikely to hold its value as well as any Anschutz.
Slippery slope once you're on it, to be sure. The road to madness (maybe even divorce) is lined with ditches full of not-quite-there accuracy projects in my experience.
First decide the degree of accuracy you want, then decide how badly you want it.
Without poking fun, Rabid may have the single most expensive CZ in Canada!
I'd agree that it should be a very good shooter when all is said and done, but a rocky road getting there.
To address the OPs question, a 10/22 can be made to shoot very well, but it's going to be pricy. If you want a lights out accurate semi, it's possible, but you have to be of the mindset that getting it to that point is where the fun is. All about the journey, the destination is secondary.
If you have a CZ that'll hold 3/8" groups at 50 yards, I think you should sell it immediately. To me.
First decide the degree of accuracy you want, then decide how badly you want it.
Without poking fun, Rabid may have the single most expensive CZ in Canada!
I'd agree that it should be a very good shooter when all is said and done, but a rocky road getting there.
To address the OPs question, a 10/22 can be made to shoot very well, but it's going to be pricy. If you want a lights out accurate semi, it's possible, but you have to be of the mindset that getting it to that point is where the fun is. All about the journey, the destination is secondary.
If you have a CZ that'll hold 3/8" groups at 50 yards, I think you should sell it immediately. To me.
Gee...I hope I didn't set-off the CZ/Anschutz discussion!
Great points Chilly807~and I agree. I know my own quest for a "very accurate" 22 always runs into a few hurdles. Budget is a big one, but not the lack OF a budget...more that I struggle with putting so much money into a single, rimfire gun. I should get over that, since I probably shoot more 22 than anything else. The next consideration is that I wonder whether or not I'd be overly paranoid taking a $1,300+++ 22 bolt action outdoors for some casual plinking...or maybe even hunting with it. Points to something like an Anschutz 1416 being a good choice but at 2x the cost of my CZ452 Varmint (which is an excellent shooter)...is it money well spent if accuracy is comparable? I'm not comparing Anshutz to CZ...and I aspire to own an nicer Anschutz in the coming year or so (currently have a 1450). I think my own experience is probably the same as everyone who flirts with the idea of squeezing as much accuracy out of their 22s as possible.
My 452 in training camp for my Spring 2016 gopher safari
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/foru...int-shoots-OK!-**UPDATE-photos-added-page-3**
Well I own a sample size of 2 Anschütz made rifles. For the money I expect reliable sub 1/2" at 50 yard performance and I'm sure most Annie rifles will achieve this. The MSR has been very satisfying so far, though I will admit I grimaced a little when I first checked it with my borescope. I reminded myself not to pass judgement without giving it a fair chance as it looked just like my Savage MKII in the barrel and that rifle shoots very well. Sure enough it wasn't immediately performing at a high level but started to come around after 500 rounds and now I feel ready to try better ammo in it. My gut feeling after the very first range session with it was that is was going to be a good one once broken in.
The Weatherby with the 64 barreled action... well that rifle would even fail CZ's factory 1" at 50 yards test. It needs a replacement barrel.
Yes, I consulted Dj after first testing the new Lilja. I asked if in his experience these barrels need any break in and he said No, they should be shooting .2-.3" with quality ammo immediately. I was getting 1"+ with Center-X, again would even fail CZ's factory standard. Not acceptable for a custom barrel. So we narrowed it down to 2 possibilities: headspace and possibly the bedding. Dj recommended first getting the headspace set to 0.043" and if that didn't work re-do the bedding. No other fault in the barrel or setup could be found.
Dj surely must have had enough drop-in barrels not perform immediately thus his findings that headspace adjustment for them is needed. I've seen him note that there were less frequent issues with them before they switched to the Bentz chamber.
djdilliodon said:
I recall DJ quoting a custom 455 build done by him around $1200 USD. That's for barrel blank, stock, trigger upgrades, bedding and smith work, all the goodies. We can't touch that price in Canada as factory stock and barrel alone brought me to $1500 then for $30 in materials I did DIY bedding. After all the extra smith work needed on the drop-in barrel yeah Chilly this CZ build is gunna cost me more than a new Annie 17xx rifle
. Mere mortals would have simply sold the rifle when the factory barrel did not perform. I like the special edition stock too much to just give up on it. I'm building it now to be my Hunter class silhouette rifle.Have a peek at this thread by Dj and tell me if any factory 64 Annie will compete with those builds
http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=724881
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wayupnorth
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Northern Alberta
interesting conversation going on.
probably not gonna help the OP much but i like it!
probably not gonna help the OP much but i like it!
The discussion is getting pretty advanced, but here are my 2 cents,
I personally own a CZ 455 Thumbhole Grey (factory everything) and am satisfied with the accuracy I am getting with SK Standard Plus. I am still trying different ammo and am far from an elite shooter, but for the sake of comparison, here's the best four 5 shots groups I had yesterday at the 50 yards range, 10x scope, with bipod and rear sandbag:
It seems about average for a stock CZ 455 and similar to expensive 10/22's. I am without a doubt the limiting factor in this rig's accuracy as I have not been target shooting for long. A simple trigger job/change would surely help but I will personally skip any barrel change or stock bedding for now. I will keep my money to buy good ammo and continue shooting 150-200 rounds every 2-3 weeks. If my accuracy continues getting better and absolute precision still tempts me, an Anschutz will be the way to go for the reasons discussed above.
I then agree with the lads suggesting to keep the CZ, assuming accuracy is your thing. If it is not enough you can put a lot of money in a custom rig or sale it too and get an almighty Annie. I would choose the latter but understand the fun of building a rifle.
Keep us up with your decision!
Marcos
I personally own a CZ 455 Thumbhole Grey (factory everything) and am satisfied with the accuracy I am getting with SK Standard Plus. I am still trying different ammo and am far from an elite shooter, but for the sake of comparison, here's the best four 5 shots groups I had yesterday at the 50 yards range, 10x scope, with bipod and rear sandbag:
It seems about average for a stock CZ 455 and similar to expensive 10/22's. I am without a doubt the limiting factor in this rig's accuracy as I have not been target shooting for long. A simple trigger job/change would surely help but I will personally skip any barrel change or stock bedding for now. I will keep my money to buy good ammo and continue shooting 150-200 rounds every 2-3 weeks. If my accuracy continues getting better and absolute precision still tempts me, an Anschutz will be the way to go for the reasons discussed above.
I then agree with the lads suggesting to keep the CZ, assuming accuracy is your thing. If it is not enough you can put a lot of money in a custom rig or sale it too and get an almighty Annie. I would choose the latter but understand the fun of building a rifle.
Keep us up with your decision!
Marcos
