Trigger Lock Issues

beagles#1 said:
Any legal types care to comment on whether the Speed Vault 500 or similar small size gun vaults would not qualify as "safes" under the current interpretation of "safe" by the courts in regard to firearms storage? I would think that if a "stack-on" cabinet or old gym locker is considered a "safe" under the law, then any locking container made of metal would also satisfy this definition. Any thoughts?
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As I said, I would ordinarily advocate that any locking metal box is a ‘safe’ , but this is skirting the edge of comfort for me. It's not the thickness of the walls, or security of the lock; it's the very small size.

I think it's obvious that were it completely un-attached, it's just a sturdy container, and not a safe. If it were screwed to your bed-side table, I would say that might not be solid enough. But anchored to a wall stud: I'd be happy to defend that one in court. Well, as happy as someone who's been charged under the Firearms Act could be…
 
Thomas D'Arcy McGee said:
Hey fellows, you guys are great :rockOn: I really owe you two big favours, I do not need a trigger lock for my SV500 and yes it is bolted to the wall with 80lbs drywall plugs :)

So, looks like I will be just fine, no trigger lock necessary in my SV500!!!

Thanks again :wave:

TDM
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I wouldn't trust anything "bolted" into drywall, legal or not!
 
Jambox said:
The words "vault" and "safe" are very ambiguous and is open for interpretation. Personally, I would not consider the Speed Vault 500 a safe or a vault because it's so small; it's more like a container with a lock. Secondly, if an RCMP officer saw the gun without a trigger lock, it would probably get on the officer's bad side. Under Canadian laws, there's no reason for you to need to "quickly" retrieve the pistol. Just look at Ian Thomson. Additionally, you will need to put a trigger lock on it anyway for transportation.

Bottom line, cover your ass so you don't get into legal troubles.
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I'll play "Devil's Advocate" here for a moment since there is no better form of correct than "technically correct" when it comes to the law IMHO.

Black's Dictionary of Law (4th edition), contains the following definition for the word "safe," and I quote:

"SAFE. A metal receptacle for the preservation of valuables."

Nowhere in this definition, which has been used in previous rulings that deemed "stack-on" cabinets and old school lockers to be "safes," is the size, small or large, of the metal receptacle mentioned. Would any reasonable person say that a small wall safe was not a "safe" if it could only hold your passport, birth certificate, your will and some cash? I don't think so. It is made of metal and it is meant to hold and preserve the valuables contained within it. IMHO, the old cliche of "size does matter" is not applicable in the case of the legal definition of a "safe" within the context of the Canadian legal system.

Again, perhaps some of the lawyers (Solomon? Heather? Ed?) on this website might weigh in on this to set the record straight?
 
09outlander said:
Ask and ye shall receive, Bell lock is at the top, Mastercraft bottom, the Bell lock is a little more than 3/4" narrower.

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if i needed locks i would grab this...next time i order something from wolverine ill throw a couple in.

i dont think you need a trigger lock in that vault..where did you get it from?
 
mlehtovaara said:
According to the Henry Barnes case in Ontario even a Stack On "Cabinet" is a safe.

This "Vault" looks quite a bit sturdier to me.

That said, having such a setup in your home is asking for trouble of you ever have to use it if you ask me.

Protection is not a legitimate reason for owning a handgun, and as we have seen the crown will come after you with everything they have if you do use one for such a purpose. Having a quick access vault, and no trigger lock on the gun with a loaded mag ready to go, will not look good.

I wouldn't be surprised if the police, and CFO, would consider such a vault reason enough to take your PAL and guns from you. Planning to use guns as protection is a big no no in their eyes and this looks like you are planning just that.

I don't agree with any of this, and wish things were different, but I have no faith in the justice system or law enforcement when it comes to stuff like this.

I bet you Ian Thompson wishes he just grabbed the 12 gauge instead........
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Here is the relevant quote right from the Firearms Act:

"Permitted purposes
28. A chief firearms officer may approve the transfer to an individual of a restricted firearm or a handgun referred to in subsection 12(6.1) (pre-December 1, 1998 handguns) only if the chief firearms officer is satisfied
(a) that the individual needs the restricted firearm or handgun
(i) to protect the life of that individual or of other individuals, or
 (ii) for use in connection with his or her lawful profession or occupation; or
..."

So, to again play "Devil's Advocate" I am under the impression that legally speaking self protection is a valid reason to own a handgun. Of course, I am under no illusion that the de facto policy would be to deny nearly all applications that might state self protection as the purpose for owning a handgun. In practical terms, those in charge of the firearms bureaucracy in Canada do not acknowledge "self protection" as a valid reason in 99.99999% of applications and there have been concerted efforts to stigmatize even the suggestion that firearms can be used in self defense by Canadians. I'm not a lawyer and I would recommend that anyone with questions about the law speak with a qualified attorney. All the same, just wanted to provide some food for thought.
 
silverfoxdj said:
Is the height lower as well? for a smaller trigger..
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One half of the Bell lock is identical in size to the Mastercraft lock, however the side with the key code on it has a squared edge where the release button is, making it about a 1/4" taller, you can see this in the pic above.
 
beagles#1 said:
Nowhere in this definition […] is the size, small or large, of the metal receptacle mentioned. Would any reasonable person say that a small wall safe was not a "safe" if it could only hold your passport, birth certificate, your will and some cash? I don't think so. It is made of metal and it is meant to hold and preserve the valuables contained within it. IMHO, the old cliche of "size does matter" is not applicable in the case of the legal definition of a "safe" within the context of the Canadian legal system.
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I'm completely on-side with this. However, that doesn't mean that legal professionals can't argue about it all day long.

The definition of a ‘safe’ as a metal box which locks, is not exclusive; there may be other things which fit this definition. For instance, a lock-box or strong-box, normally considered as similar to a safe, but portable, can be described the same way. Thus the Crown may argue that a small, un-anchored SV500 is a portable strong-box, ‘storage’ is not applicable in a portable container, and you know the rest.

It's not just the Firearms Act which wants for a definition of the ‘safe’; the word shows up elsewhere, including in the Criminal Code under S.351 (Possession of Break-In Instrument). As well it can be an issue in contract law, where for instance many people have insurance policies which require certain valuable jewellery and such to be locked in a safe.

If it weren't for arguments meant to sway interpretations, we would have no need of barristers.
 
beagles#1 said:
I'll play "Devil's Advocate" here for a moment since there is no better form of correct than "technically correct" when it comes to the law IMHO.

Black's Dictionary of Law (4th edition), contains the following definition for the word "safe," and I quote:

"SAFE. A metal receptacle for the preservation of valuables."

Nowhere in this definition, which has been used in previous rulings that deemed "stack-on" cabinets and old school lockers to be "safes," is the size, small or large, of the metal receptacle mentioned. Would any reasonable person say that a small wall safe was not a "safe" if it could only hold your passport, birth certificate, your will and some cash? I don't think so. It is made of metal and it is meant to hold and preserve the valuables contained within it. IMHO, the old cliche of "size does matter" is not applicable in the case of the legal definition of a "safe" within the context of the Canadian legal system.

Again, perhaps some of the lawyers (Solomon? Heather? Ed?) on this website might weigh in on this to set the record straight?
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Yes, it can be argued that the Speed Vault 500 is a safe or a vault, but does anyone want to be in the position where you need to argue? That's my point. What you quoted in the dictionary is just the typical definition for the word, but not law. Judges and CFOs are free to think otherwise. When the definition is clearly defined in the Firearms act, go knock yourself out. I am just saying to be cautious with the law.
 
Fatalus_Viridae said:
I do not work for, or have the omega or inter-bore locks. I too am searching for an alternative. I see one member said avoid the Omega, if you care to please expand on this.

Interbore:

http://www.fenrir.com/interbore/
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Omega's are probably fine for some one who uses their firearm once or twice a year. They simply do not stand up to a weekly shooting regiment. I purchased Omegas for all of my HGs, autos and revolvers, 22LR to 44Mag. The first to go bad were the 22LR auto locks. They got sticky to extract and it was evident that the extaction rims were being chewed up by the extractor. Next to go were the 9mms, for the same reason. Had a 22LR revolver lock get ornory on me so I abandoned using them on my revolvers all together. As it stands the only one left in use now is a 45ACP.

Now where can we get an Interbore? Wouldn't mind trying one out.

BTB - Did you read the "Have you seen me" posted under free stuff from the Interbore site link you provided?

M
 
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Jambox said:
The words "vault" and "safe" are very ambiguous and is open for interpretation. Personally, I would not consider the Speed Vault 500 a safe or a vault because it's so small; it's more like a container with a lock. Secondly, if an RCMP officer saw the gun without a trigger lock, it would probably get on the officer's bad side. Under Canadian laws, there's no reason for you to need to "quickly" retrieve the pistol. Just look at Ian Thomson. Additionally, you will need to put a trigger lock on it anyway for transportation.

Bottom line, cover your ass so you don't get into legal troubles.
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Firstly, why are we worried about the RCMP seeing your legally stored firearms?

Secondly, there is no specific regulation regarding the size or amount of legal storage containers a firearm owner may own.

Mount your safe (no regulation regarding that either), place your firearm in container. lock your container, watch tv. Dont worry the storm troopers aren't coming.
 
cariboocreek said:
Firstly, why are we worried about the RCMP seeing your legally stored firearms?

Secondly, there is no specific regulation regarding the size or amount of legal storage containers a firearm owner may own.

Mount your safe (no regulation regarding that either), place your firearm in container. lock your container, watch tv. Dont worry the storm troopers aren't coming.
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This.

Lock the firearms in a vault, safe or room that was built or modified specifically to store firearms safely.
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http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/fs-fd/storage-entreposage-eng.htm
 
Forget trigger locks, as they are a Murphy's Law AD waiting to happen. I know you are a responsible, observant person, who follows those PROVE rules, but eliminating the likelihood of stupid events is wise.

Use a cable lock, snaked down the magazine well. Use a vinyl coated cable. Any cheap (dollar store) cable lock will meet the 'safe storage' requirements. If you forget the combo, just cut the lock off. And don't worry about the spring taking a set, as this is a myth. Then put a padlock with the same combo on your pistol case.
 
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