Trigger Upgrades - what are you gaining

As evidenced by?

Well what kind if shooting are you doing? Do you need to keep 5 rounds in an inch at 100m, or the A zone of an IPSC target at 20m, or shoot a possible at 600m, 400m run down?
What do you consider heavy and light for a trigger pull? For precision shooting there is no question about lighter trigger being better...but we are into triggers measured in ounces, not lbs.
Why is it better? Well when you are holding your rifle, it's never perfectly steady and your sights kind of wander due to all sorts of external influences. You are only over that ideal spot you want to hit for a fraction of a second. The quicker you can get that shot off, with the least amount of effort and resistance, the tighter your groups will be.
 
100m bench test, 18" JP upper, ACOG TA31CH 4x, Timney Trigger 3lbs
15rds of 75gr Hornady match ammo

Did you ever do the same test with the stock trigger?

To be honest NO I didn't do the same test with the stock trigger on this set up but from my previous AR(Windham Weaponry) I am now way more comfortable with the trigger pull (Timney) and control.
I don't believe the Timney over a standard quality MIL Spec AR trigger would make such a difference for Ex: SR Matches as you know its the shooter, not the gear. Look at the guys using C7's and they kick but!
Where a trigger like this comes to shine is for CQB or quick followup shots.
The bottom line is a good smooth trigger is definitely not a negative . You need try one out yourself, test and see...I highly recommend one and as for the haters on buying gear, upgrades, well it's simple, Don't :)
 
Can a really good shooter do as well with a 12 lb trigger that an average shooter can with a custom 'match' prepped 5lb trigger? Probably (especially when using an AR or other auto loader at short range). Most definitely if their skill can eliminate the inconsistencies the generic trigger brings to the accuracy of the platform.
But I believe that skill in controlling the trigger bleeds from the shooter's concentration and may retard their performance in other areas of marksmanship principles that are all demanding attention from the shooter when the shot breaks.
I think too that at certain levels of shooting (be it distance or precision), there is an undeniable mechanical advantage to a better trigger, all things being equal.

Regardless of experience or ability, average or exceptional, shooter 'a' or 'b' will almost always do better with the better trigger. If there is no change in performance of the platform, between the two triggers then the week link is likely something else (be it wind or ammo, or some other factor).

A better trigger will get an average shooter up to speed shooting with more consistently quicker than if using a generic trigger, and allow them to generate more energy to correcting other areas of the principles that demand more attention and need more work. It is quite possible the biggest advantage is pure psychology.
 
Lighter triggers hide poor trigger manipulation better than heavy triggers. Once a shooter has fixed their issues the high speed/high dollar trigger has less of an improvement (I like my GA trigger but it probably only gains me a handful of points out of 600 over a decent factory trigger).

IMO when it comes to buying AR accuracy it is barrel, ammo, optic and then way down the list after coaching and practice is the trigger.
 
25 posts and nobody has really answered the question.

"I put in an aftermarket trigger and it resulted in ###x improvement in my shooting with the rifle"

I'm not saying a good trigger won't help shooting, but am looking for someone to actually quantify the benefit/improvement they have realized after installing one.
 
25 posts and nobody has really answered the question.

"I put in an aftermarket trigger and it resulted in ###x improvement in my shooting with the rifle"

I'm not saying a good trigger won't help shooting, but am looking for someone to actually quantify the benefit/improvement they have realized after installing one.

The only problem with that question is triggers are somewhat of a personal preference thing. It's not like good quality match ammo or a nice barrel where the mechanical improvement in accuracy can be measured by a machine. Like a grip and stock, the trigger is what lets you "interface" with the rifle.
 
I have used the ssa a few times this year, it is less tiring than the stock trigger. It is easier, but i don't shoot better group with it than with thee stock trigger. If the rifle is a sub MOA rifle, the difference will probably be more pronounced. For a 1.5moa stock gun, not much gain in accuracy. For that short single shot COF at svc, match trigger does not make much a difference.

What it does better is in timed drills. It is much faster and easier than a stock trigger. I can maintain the same split time longer with a ssa. With a stock trigger, my performance declines faster, especially in shooting drills with a lot rounds again and again. My finger gets physically tired.

Also bear in mind ar stock trigger is light and short in reset and travel already , especially when it is compared to others like SA80 and TAVOR. On the other hand, some people can run glock faster than some others with customs 1911.

There is no doubt in my mind I can shoot faster and maintain that performance longer with a SSA.
 
Ok, I'll answer it. Yes it did make a difference. I shot about 1/2" smaller group at 100m with a timney trigger, than the Std. AR style trigger in m y AR 180B. A general rule of thumb for any rifle, or pistol, is that the trigger pull weight should be less than the overall weight of the gun. My buddies tavor with 11.5lb. trigger (Measured) is a bear to shoot a decent group with, and is more than the weight of the rifle. Removing the return Spring brought it down to 6.5lbs., which makes it group a bit better and easier to hit first shot as well.

Obviously, there is a difference between a combat trigger, and a target trigger. Since I will likely never see combat, I prefer more of a lighter trigger.
 
before and after. The worst AR trigger I ever felt was a new Danial Defense last year. It was so bad I had trouble shooting groups with it off sandbags. I could not imagine trying to shoot a match with it. After a Rock River was installed, it shot just fine.

I have put Rock Rivers in about 7 different ARs. They install easily from the top. No need to remove the safety. Cheap, at about $108 USD.

I like a trigger to be crisp. That is the most important thing for pistols and rifles. If the weight can be less than 5 pounds, that is a bonus.

I just ordered another Apex kit for my new M&P45.
 
When it comes to AR's there are 3 things that make a difference. Triggers, ammo and barrels.

Get yourself a Geissele High Speed National Match and be done with it.
 
The 6-8 lb AR trigger was designed the way it was or a number of reasons. It is simple, reliable, interchangeable in mass production and most importantly from a military point of view - safe. It will not fire on safe, and it will not fire when dropped. Pretty much any milspec AR trigger component will work safely with any other.

The condition of the searing surfaces is critical for safety and trigger feel. There are very tiny grooves machined into the surface when ground that to an experienced shooter feel like speed bumps. This surface irregularity and the length of engagement is known a creep. This surface irregularity holds oil for corrosion protection and provides friction for drop safety. The trigger provides the leverage to overcome the friction.

These surfaces can be polished - at the risk of promoting corrosion and making the trigger unsafe if dropped or jarred. Idiots often polish these with Dremels or stones right through the case hardening which allows erosion and an ever decreasing margin of safety.

Some bench or match shooters are not worried about these things, but service shooters should be.

Match triggers evolved to improve the feel which can be subjective in the absence of something like a Dvorak machine. http://www.dvorakinstruments.com/Products/TriggerScan-System.asp This charts pull and feel over the entire length of the pull and records release points and multiple stages etc.

They also improve consistency. This can be measured easily on one of these with 5 or six pulls: http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/tools/trigger-pull-gauge.php Nearly any match trigger will have a much smaller range of trigger pull weights

Keith shoots with a match trigger - for a reason. Anyone that knows how to shoot can understand that trigger squeeze and follow through are important. Set triggers one single stage and two-stage triggers evolved to lighten the point of release and make the trigger more consistent. If the trigger is smooth and the same every time you are free to concentrate on sight picture. As mentioned before this hides shooter inconsistency. A poor shooter will see much less benefit than an experienced shooter.

They all cost more money that the standard trigger, but don't necessarily make improved groups or scores.

Adjustable: Some match triggers are designed for adjustability so the user can tune a number of preferences such as how much slack is in the trigger, the force required to release the shot and how much over travel is in the trigger after release. These are often complicated and anything that can be adjusted will eventually adjust itself or be adjusted by an unqualified individual. Also many adjustable triggers can be adjusted to go off by themselves or not at all. The KAC - one of the best feeling triggers by my estimate has an 8 page installation manual.

Single Stage: Usually involves a conventional searing surface that has been shortened and or/polished. The ALG is a standard AR trigger with a nice coating and a polished surface. A Timney trigger has very little movement and nearly no over travel. This means re-set and follow up requires minimal finger movement and less movement overall.

Two Stage: A two stage trigger will have a first pull, in the case of the Geisselle SSA will be 3.5 lbs and a "stop" that you can feel. The second pull will release usually after a smaller and more polished searing surface disengages. In the case of the Geisselle SSA this will be another 1 lb, and have a relatively short movement and a relatively limited over travel.

Many two stage match triggers dispense with the standard AR searing surface location and use one or two spring loaded disconnects on top to release the hammer in stages. Like the RRA. Even the simplest one will provide a consistent and lighter release, however this is often at the expense of safety as spring loaded sears can move under drop loading and fire. In the case of the Geisselle SSA, one disconnect is spring loaded, the other is fixed portion of the trigger (like the RRA) and a standard AR searing notch at the bottom is retained as a safety notch. This one is drop safe, many match triggers are not safe for some uses.

This trigger is in use operationally - including by police and military units that may fire at NSCC and CAFSAM - because it is safe and consistent. Two stages and limited over travel means that to fire the first shot you can take up the trigger to the first stage (3.5 lbs) and the release will be easy (1 lb) and consistent. A follow up shot will require less forward movement of the finger to re-set and the shot will require only the second stage (1 lb).

You won't be able to measure the improvement just in group size, but there can be tangible benefits from better scores due to increased consistency, faster split times etc. Taking up eight pounds of a full movement trigger at the end of a snap exposure vs taking up one pound with limited movement could be the difference between seeing backstop when the shot releases and seeing a nice sight picture.
 
I installed a Giessele SSA, and have been happy with it. My double-taps tightened up, but I think that was more due to continued practice and improvement of technique.

I have seen a considerable improvement at distance. For me, I think much of it is due to familiarity with two stage triggers on other rifles.
 
Is a good Trigger upgrade worth it? Yes! A good trigger is still a good trigger. If you suck it won't make much difference until your fundamentals are squared away. If you are squared away then you will benefit from having an upgrade. For me this is most noticed on the bench zeroing guns. Aforementioned daniel defence triggers are gritty. They're fine for running and gunning but leave alot to be desired off the bench. And any AR's I have built or zero'd have to have a very precise 50 yard zero before I call it good, so when I am moving and shooting, I can place faith in how well my gun was zeroed in.

So, while I respect the train of that thought that training over spending on enhancements is the best route...I still believe that having an aftermarket trigger does give the gun an edge. For SBR's and any AR doing more dynamic run and gun activities I recommend a single stage geissele trigger, for any gun thats going to have a powered optic setup, or precision; run a geissele 2 stage trigger.
 
Is a good Trigger upgrade worth it? Yes! A good trigger is still a good trigger. If you suck it won't make much difference until your fundamentals are squared away. If you are squared away then you will benefit from having an upgrade. For me this is most noticed on the bench zeroing guns. Aforementioned daniel defence triggers are gritty. They're fine for running and gunning but leave alot to be desired off the bench. And any AR's I have built or zero'd have to have a very precise 50 yard zero before I call it good, so when I am moving and shooting, I can place faith in how well my gun was zeroed in.

So, while I respect the train of that thought that training over spending on enhancements is the best route...I still believe that having an aftermarket trigger does give the gun an edge. For SBR's and any AR doing more dynamic run and gun activities I recommend a single stage geissele trigger, for any gun thats going to have a powered optic setup, or precision; run a geissele 2 stage trigger.

Choosing the Right Trigger for You - Geissele Automatics and ALG Defense

 
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