Data manipulation and human error can lead to the 3cm decline in horn length over 40 years. They data in Festa's study is heavily cherry picked to leave out some of the best hunting areas and times.
Trophy Hunting
- Thread starter sheephunter
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Data manipulation and human error can lead to the 3cm decline in horn length over 40 years. They data in Festa's study is heavily cherry picked to leave out some of the best hunting areas and times.
"data manipulation and cherry picking" can be used by both "sides of the issue" And I think we have seen it here.
Some people just don't want to see sheep go on a draw as it is not convenient for them. So they will fight it and use anything they can drum up to rationalize their position.
There is a funny thing that happens each year west of Rocky (and in other areas I assume). If anyone is out hunting in the mountains and sees or hears a helicopter they say "OH, there goes Fish & Wildlife chasing the bighorns into the park so hunters can't get them". Where they get such a ridiculous idea I'll never know.
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My understanding is that the push to see bigger sheep on the mountain did not come from outfitters.
Fiesta Blanchet said a lot of things that I questioned...it's my understanding that this one is as inaccurate as the rest. APOS actually stood pretty firmly beside the other AGMAG groups to oppose the changes being pushed by SRD. They weren't the bad guys in this case from what I saw. I have my suspicions where the push came from but I have nothing concrete to back it up.
Perhaps but I know many that have looked at all the data and understand there is no need for a draw. A draw is very low on SRD's list of management options so I have no idea why it keeps coming up. Even SRD has it off the plate. Perhaps people that just don't understand the issues are the ones keeping it alive and use it to rationalize their lack of understanding of the real issues.. Don't you think it prudent to see the results of Kneteman's study before doing anything?
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Well Duffy, this particular study left out rams killed in WMU's that don't have outfitting, as well as rams killed during the parts of the season that don't have outfitting as well as the Cadomin hunt. So when you don't count three weeks of the season(usually the best 3 weeks) and also leave out WMU's like 400 and 438(where some of the largest rams are coming from) then how can you draw an accurate picture of the situation? That's cherry picking at it's finest.
Some people just want to know what the supposed problem is and if it's a province wide problem if one at all.
There's no doubt that outfitters would suffer from the proposed changes, except for maybe the extended wait period. Although I'm sure it wouldn't break their hearts to see residents have to draw a tag.
Not to mention how inaccurate the age and measurement data they used is.
Just telling you what I know for fact...they did not support it and stood in solidarity with the other AGMAG groups in opposition.
Definitely, and it should raise some suspicion with the most ardent sheep-on-draw supporters when the gov doesn't want to hang their hat on this study and completely backed off from changes for further review.
The government was extremely lazy on handling this and thankfully numerous people asked question and raised their voices.
Funny how if the gov't does not listen to the people then they are "fascists" (I know you did not use that exact word in this) But when they listen to a squeaky wheel and change direction then "Ha Ha they backed down when they were pressured".
AGMAG lol lol!
Actually I didn't use a word even remotely close but don't let that stop you from trying to make a point. The circumstances of this standoff were a bit difference than most...they backed off.... Believe whatever you like Duffy, I honestly don't care but you know that I don't open my mouth on an issue like this without some serious facts to back it up. There was a good story about it in Alberta Outdoorsman a while back that laid out the sorted tale. If you are interested in the facts they were all there. All I can say is that I'm very proud to be a member of a few of the AGMAG groups after what I saw in this debacle. If you want to continue to make light of it with no knowledge of what went on....feel free to carry on but I honestly don't see the point.
I also take exception with your premise that this is all about some kind of inconvienance. From what I've seen some of the people digging the most on this are also some that would be willing to give up the most if it could be shown that is what is required. If the proponents of this restrictive line of reason had a strong position we would be well passed what to do next but that isn't what has happened
I am really starting to get sick and tired of the "politically correct" BS.
Most "Hunters" around here know exactly what "Trophy Hunting" is all about, and what it means. I am one of them.
I also respect the "Hunters" that hunt for meat.
So when we all go out and enjoy what we do...at the end of the day, hunting is hunting...
Come on...let`s get a life!
Let`s quit worrying about what the new generation definition of this means...
Most "Hunters" around here know exactly what "Trophy Hunting" is all about, and what it means. I am one of them.
I also respect the "Hunters" that hunt for meat.
So when we all go out and enjoy what we do...at the end of the day, hunting is hunting...
Come on...let`s get a life!
Let`s quit worrying about what the new generation definition of this means...
This.
Proven by the guys that are bringing actual factual information to the table in this discussion. I know it takes real effort to gather them.
Its easy to play devil's advocate, but the real estate to stand on just isn't that firm.
And guys that are this invested at getting to the bottom of this stuff are certainly the ones most willing to give - as long as its needed and fair.
Thanks for your efforts.
F&W officers were never trained to do this and both age and measurements are far from accurate....really far.
I think you are quite wrong in this.
There is a certain number of hunters. There is a certain number of "anti-hunters". And then there are a huge number of "non-hunters" who are the ones who ultimately will decide what happens with hunting in the future. The "anti-hunters" are always trying to influence the non-hunters to come over to their side. We hunters have to do what we can (within reason) to keep the non-hunters sympathetic to our cause.
Is this speculation on your part or do you have any facts to support this?
So if there is a "trend" towards shorter ram horns, does this mean there is a "trend" of less competent F&W officers measuring them?
Or should I just go do the research myself as there is a lot of information out there?
