Troubleshooting a Trailboss load for Pedersoli Sharps.

Murray 3-D

Murray 3-D

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I recently got a 32" barreled 45-70 (barrel slugs @ .4575" groove, .449" bore) Pedersoli Sharps that I've been wanting to work up 2 loads for:

1) A 500gr + max load for target shooting out to 700m. Been slowly making good progress on this.

2) A cost effective relatively light load for sub 200m plinking. This load has been giving me serious troubles.

The back story:

I decided to try Trailboss powder because the internet has it pretty hyped up as being a good choice for 45-70 light loads.

The components i chose were Hornady brass, Winchester LRPs and CamPro 405gr Copper Plated (.458") RNFP bullets.

Following the Hodgdon Trailboss PDF instructions for determining the charge range, the measurements indicated 11.7gr -16.something. Combined with Trapdoor load data from Hodgdons website, that range was narrowed to 12grs starting, and 13grs maximum (25,000cup) Pedersoli reconmends not exceeding 29,000 or something similar.

So I neck sized fire formed brass (for extended brass life hopefully). Then expanded them for roughly .004" of neck tension i believe. Primed and charged incrementally a .2gr ladder test, seated the bullets to roughly .015-.02" off the lands and finally, pressed the neck flair back against the bullet using the neck sizing die (did this in response to internet recommendations with other Sharps loads, crimping generally isn't necessary for single shots? And reduces brass life...)

The issues:

Starting at 50m, I proceed to fire the first 12gr load... POP... fizzle .... Thump. The bullet comes out the muzzle like a cork gun. Not good at all. I extract the brass, looks fine, fairly sooty. Check the bore, clear, but also sooty so I snake it once.

After a minute or 2 of reflecting on what could've caused that, I suspect maybe it was too much air gap for reliable ignition. So I load and fire the 12.8gr load... POW. Fires normally... recoil similar to a .357mag or 44 I suppose. The brass looks fine, everything is cleaner. I check the target, a clean hole, no keyholing. So I proceed to fire a 3 shot group and they all fall into 1.25" pattern @50m. Good enough for me.

I load up a couple dozen. The next time I'm at the range, I bring a chronograph. Expecting to achieve around 900fps, I'm surprised to see only 740fps and 30ish fps deviations. Not great, but still grouping 1.25" at 50m. So I move to 100m, and thats where weird stuff happens. I get this giant 12" plus vertically strung group, no keyholing still, and the windage is proportional to 50m (around 2.5" spread). So in a span of 50m the bullets must start becoming ballistically eractic, but not enough to tumble.

Solutions? :

Did a bunch of reading threads and figured maybe its because of inconsistent ignition and powder burn due to not crimping.

So I seates the bullets .03" deeper and crimped into the crannulars. I expected these to maybe shoot hotter, closer to 1000fps like what the data suggest i should be getting with only a 24" barrel. Nope, the crimped loads nowvonly chono at 540 fps!

So now I'm starting to consider the CamPro bullet maybe not being compatible with this particular recipe (velocity) and barrel combo. I have shot the same Campro bullets in this Sharps at 50m with a IMR 4198 load, they performed reasonably. But that load recoiled substantially so I suspect they were traveling well over 1000fps. Not 540fps lol. I wonder if they are hard cast and because they are barely interfering more than .0005" in the grooves...maybe the Trailboss ain't swelling them enough to bite good and get a consistent seal.

My final attempt will be with 300gr soft cast (10 BNH ) RNFP gas checked bullets sized to (.459") I see i can get away with a bigger powder charge, more velocity and less pressure with that component.

Which leads to some questions :

- What amount of neck tension do u suspect I should be trying with this bullet and Trailboss?

- Should I be crimping this load aswell ?

- Do you jump these kinds of bullets ? Or should I maybe be touching the lands ?
 
brybenn said:
Could try something like cornmeal or cream of wheat powder on top of the powder to keep it pressed against the ignition
Click to expand...
for my test loads above, I didn't use any filler. Just a good solid crimp. For Clays, I used a large rifle magnum primer to see if it would give me more consistent ignition (lower ES & SD), which it appears to do. I tried using large pistol primers for the last batch tested and got a very low ES & SD while maintaining the speed I was after.

The Vihtavouri was N32C and disappointing at 13gr. Probably need to go up to14-15gr to get the speed and consistent ignition. I managed to get more TrailBoss, so didn't do any further load development with the N32C as it's pretty expensive stuff

I'm happy with my TrailBoss loads, the next step up would be H4198 for loads in the ~1200fps range as a middle load between TrailBoss and H335.
 
brybenn said:
Could try something like cornmeal or cream of wheat powder on top of the powder to keep it pressed against the ignition
Click to expand...
I tried this once and the wheat diluted the powder load and resulted in terrible ignition and burn, if the thing ignited at all.

If you want to add a filler, I'd suggest cotton batting or toilet paper. Something that can't migrate into the powder.
 
Murray 3-D said:
I recently got a 32" barreled 45-70 (barrel slugs @ .4575" groove, .449" bore) Pedersoli Sharps that I've been wanting to work up 2 loads for:

1) A 500gr + max load for target shooting out to 700m. Been slowly making good progress on this.

2) A cost effective relatively light load for sub 200m plinking. This load has been giving me serious troubles.

The back story:

I decided to try Trailboss powder because the internet has it pretty hyped up as being a good choice for 45-70 light loads.

The components i chose were Hornady brass, Winchester LRPs and CamPro 405gr Copper Plated (.458") RNFP bullets.

Following the Hodgdon Trailboss PDF instructions for determining the charge range, the measurements indicated 11.7gr -16.something. Combined with Trapdoor load data from Hodgdons website, that range was narrowed to 12grs starting, and 13grs maximum (25,000cup) Pedersoli reconmends not exceeding 29,000 or something similar.

So I neck sized fire formed brass (for extended brass life hopefully). Then expanded them for roughly .004" of neck tension i believe. Primed and charged incrementally a .2gr ladder test, seated the bullets to roughly .015-.02" off the lands and finally, pressed the neck flair back against the bullet using the neck sizing die (did this in response to internet recommendations with other Sharps loads, crimping generally isn't necessary for single shots? And reduces brass life...)

The issues:

Starting at 50m, I proceed to fire the first 12gr load... POP... fizzle .... Thump. The bullet comes out the muzzle like a cork gun. Not good at all. I extract the brass, looks fine, fairly sooty. Check the bore, clear, but also sooty so I snake it once.

After a minute or 2 of reflecting on what could've caused that, I suspect maybe it was too much air gap for reliable ignition. So I load and fire the 12.8gr load... POW. Fires normally... recoil similar to a .357mag or 44 I suppose. The brass looks fine, everything is cleaner. I check the target, a clean hole, no keyholing. So I proceed to fire a 3 shot group and they all fall into 1.25" pattern @50m. Good enough for me.

I load up a couple dozen. The next time I'm at the range, I bring a chronograph. Expecting to achieve around 900fps, I'm surprised to see only 740fps and 30ish fps deviations. Not great, but still grouping 1.25" at 50m. So I move to 100m, and thats where weird stuff happens. I get this giant 12" plus vertically strung group, no keyholing still, and the windage is proportional to 50m (around 2.5" spread). So in a span of 50m the bullets must start becoming ballistically eractic, but not enough to tumble.

Solutions? :

Did a bunch of reading threads and figured maybe its because of inconsistent ignition and powder burn due to not crimping.

So I seates the bullets .03" deeper and crimped into the crannulars. I expected these to maybe shoot hotter, closer to 1000fps like what the data suggest i should be getting with only a 24" barrel. Nope, the crimped loads nowvonly chono at 540 fps!

So now I'm starting to consider the CamPro bullet maybe not being compatible with this particular recipe (velocity) and barrel combo. I have shot the same Campro bullets in this Sharps at 50m with a IMR 4198 load, they performed reasonably. But that load recoiled substantially so I suspect they were traveling well over 1000fps. Not 540fps lol. I wonder if they are hard cast and because they are barely interfering more than .0005" in the grooves...maybe the Trailboss ain't swelling them enough to bite good and get a consistent seal.

My final attempt will be with 300gr soft cast (10 BNH ) RNFP gas checked bullets sized to (.459") I see i can get away with a bigger powder charge, more velocity and less pressure with that component.

Which leads to some questions :

- What amount of neck tension do u suspect I should be trying with this bullet and Trailboss?

- Should I be crimping this load aswell ?

- Do you jump these kinds of bullets ? Or should I maybe be touching the lands ?
Click to expand...
Sir….I read your first paragraph and know EXACTLY what you are talking about. I went through exactly what you did with my new Pedersoli, Trailboss and Campro bullets. Bloopers, crap accuracy…
Switched powders and the problem went away. Don’t suffer, dump the Trailboss.
 
Deathrawt said:
When you use trail boss powder, aren’t you supposed to fill the case completely but not compressed?
Click to expand...
please always start with load data published from a reliable source. This is from the Hodgdon online reloading resource. The 13gr Trailboss I use for my 405gr coated lead bullets only fills ~ 1/3rd of the case.

1774574613678.png
 
Deathrawt said:
When you use trail boss powder, aren’t you supposed to fill the case completely but not compressed?
Click to expand...
Starting charge is technically case filled to the bullet base, minus 70% ( i think ) by weight. Because the Sharps often fall into the weakest safe pressure tier of 45-70 loads, Hodgdon cuts the maximum charge off at 13grs instead of 16grs (filled case to bullet base).
 
VanMan said:
please always start with load data published from a reliable source. This is from the Hodgdon online reloading resource. The 13gr Trailboss I use for my 405gr coated lead bullets only fills ~ 1/3rd of the case.

View attachment 1118206
Click to expand...
I’ve never tried using trailboss in anything but from what I read on other forums with guys using it that’s what everyone said to do was to fill the case up with it
The claim was you could never get a dangerous load with it as it is so bulky of a powder you could never get enough in the case to do so
Obviously one needs to take what is said on forums with a grain of salt lol
 
Wouldn't the reference loading in a pre-smokeless cartridge like this be a black powder load? I'd be tempted to try that first, then look at the BP substitutes next.

Edit: should add I don't have a 45/70 yet but can hear its song.
 
old303 said:
Wouldn't the reference loading in a pre-smokeless cartridge like this be a black powder load? I'd be tempted to try that first, then look at the BP substitutes next.

Edit: should add I don't have a 45/70 yet but can hear its song.
Click to expand...
Black powder is a very messy affair and you would need to have a strict cleaning regiment for your firearm if you intend to shoot that. We don't allow it in our indoor range. Way too much smoke that is very corrosive to our HVAC systems. Black Powder shoots are popular at the local outdoor range. Usually the first Sunday of the month. There's everything from flintlock muskets to 45-70's loaded with 70gr of black powder (the original loading so that's why it's named "45-70"). A different kind of fun :)

All the reference loading manuals/resources I have used list smokeless powder charges for 45-70. In the case of the Hodgdon online resource, they list 3 levels of reloads.

1774641627695.png
 
Mr.Rigpig said:
Ya my understanding of trailboss is use up to a full case but DO NOT compress it.
Click to expand...
I was curious if I remembered correctly from when I loaded my last batch of 405gr 45-70 loads with 13gr of Trail Boss. It fills ~ 1/2 of the case. If I fill the case to just where I would seat the bullet, that would be 19.5gr of Trail Boss - 50% over the max recommended charge on the Hodgdon website.

You folks are free to do whatever you like. I'm going to stick with manufacturers load data ... :)

The pen shows the approx case level
IMG_1817.jpg

This is the case filled to where I would seat a 405gr bullet
IMG_1818.JPG

19.5gr ...
IMG_1819.JPG
 
Murray 3-D said:
I recently got a 32" barreled 45-70 (barrel slugs @ .4575" groove, .449" bore) Pedersoli Sharps that I've been wanting to work up 2 loads for:

1) A 500gr + max load for target shooting out to 700m. Been slowly making good progress on this.

2) A cost effective relatively light load for sub 200m plinking. This load has been giving me serious troubles.

The back story:

I decided to try Trailboss powder because the internet has it pretty hyped up as being a good choice for 45-70 light loads.

The components i chose were Hornady brass, Winchester LRPs and CamPro 405gr Copper Plated (.458") RNFP bullets.

Following the Hodgdon Trailboss PDF instructions for determining the charge range, the measurements indicated 11.7gr -16.something. Combined with Trapdoor load data from Hodgdons website, that range was narrowed to 12grs starting, and 13grs maximum (25,000cup) Pedersoli reconmends not exceeding 29,000 or something similar.

So I neck sized fire formed brass (for extended brass life hopefully). Then expanded them for roughly .004" of neck tension i believe. Primed and charged incrementally a .2gr ladder test, seated the bullets to roughly .015-.02" off the lands and finally, pressed the neck flair back against the bullet using the neck sizing die (did this in response to internet recommendations with other Sharps loads, crimping generally isn't necessary for single shots? And reduces brass life...)

The issues:

Starting at 50m, I proceed to fire the first 12gr load... POP... fizzle .... Thump. The bullet comes out the muzzle like a cork gun. Not good at all. I extract the brass, looks fine, fairly sooty. Check the bore, clear, but also sooty so I snake it once.

After a minute or 2 of reflecting on what could've caused that, I suspect maybe it was too much air gap for reliable ignition. So I load and fire the 12.8gr load... POW. Fires normally... recoil similar to a .357mag or 44 I suppose. The brass looks fine, everything is cleaner. I check the target, a clean hole, no keyholing. So I proceed to fire a 3 shot group and they all fall into 1.25" pattern @50m. Good enough for me.

I load up a couple dozen. The next time I'm at the range, I bring a chronograph. Expecting to achieve around 900fps, I'm surprised to see only 740fps and 30ish fps deviations. Not great, but still grouping 1.25" at 50m. So I move to 100m, and thats where weird stuff happens. I get this giant 12" plus vertically strung group, no keyholing still, and the windage is proportional to 50m (around 2.5" spread). So in a span of 50m the bullets must start becoming ballistically eractic, but not enough to tumble.

Solutions? :

Did a bunch of reading threads and figured maybe its because of inconsistent ignition and powder burn due to not crimping.

So I seates the bullets .03" deeper and crimped into the crannulars. I expected these to maybe shoot hotter, closer to 1000fps like what the data suggest i should be getting with only a 24" barrel. Nope, the crimped loads nowvonly chono at 540 fps!

So now I'm starting to consider the CamPro bullet maybe not being compatible with this particular recipe (velocity) and barrel combo. I have shot the same Campro bullets in this Sharps at 50m with a IMR 4198 load, they performed reasonably. But that load recoiled substantially so I suspect they were traveling well over 1000fps. Not 540fps lol. I wonder if they are hard cast and because they are barely interfering more than .0005" in the grooves...maybe the Trailboss ain't swelling them enough to bite good and get a consistent seal.

My final attempt will be with 300gr soft cast (10 BNH ) RNFP gas checked bullets sized to (.459") I see i can get away with a bigger powder charge, more velocity and less pressure with that component.

Which leads to some questions :

- What amount of neck tension do u suspect I should be trying with this bullet and Trailboss?

- Should I be crimping this load aswell ?

- Do you jump these kinds of bullets ? Or should I maybe be touching the lands ?
Click to expand...
I just noticed you are using Hornady brass. That's shorter than standard 45-70 brass so you will have problems with some brands of crimping die as they are based on standard length 45-70 brass cases. I read some people used a 45lc crimp die, but that didn't work for me so for Hornady 45-70 brass, I use a Hornady 45-70 crimp die. Put's on a good solid crimp for me.
 
VanMan said:
I just noticed you are using Hornady brass. That's shorter than standard 45-70 brass so you will have problems with some brands of crimping die as they are based on standard length 45-70 brass cases. I read some people used a 45lc crimp die, but that didn't work for me so for Hornady 45-70 brass, I use a Hornady 45-70 crimp die. Put's on a good solid crimp for me.
Click to expand...
I believe thats only for the FTX brass. The regular Hornady brass i bought measure 2.100", i trimmed them to 2.095"
 
I ended up giving up on TrailBoss and just loading on the lighter half of the IMR 4198 spectrum. Settled on 31.5grains, the 405gr bullet seated to a depth of 2.540". The lightest I've found i can go before having slightly sooty brass. Chronos around 1460fps. Recoils like a .270 id say. Patterns under 2moa i suspect, but I didn't measure. Pretty good considering the cheap bullets and low amount of hassle put into the load (.4565" neck sized for a .458 bullet, no crimp, virtually no case mouth flair).
 
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