Trying out a plain base cast bullet in my 45/70

Win 38-55

Win 38-55

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The rifle I used today was a Winchester 1886, shipped in 1904 and letters with an octagon barrel and half mag. Here's a photo taken this evening, in its regular place below the Terry Redlin picture. It has iron sights, with the rear sight a wide notch as found in the old ladders sights. The cable lock is removed for the photo.

4570-hanging.jpg


My 405 grain GC bullets are almost used up, so I figured I'd try a 405 cast plain base bullet. I loaded up five this morning and stopped off at the range for a few minutes. My load was 25 grains of IMR 4198 with 1 sheet of toilet paper loosely rolled and folded. The results are shown below:

4570-100-25-gr.jpg


Looking at the target above, 4 of the shots had a horizontal spread of less than 1" at 100 yards, but the vertical spread was 3 & 11/16". I figured the flyer was due to me needing practice with the wide 'V' of the rear ladder sight. Clearly this load was hitting high at 100 yards, so I decided to increase the velocity slightly to make the bullets hit lower. I also wondered if the gun was bouncing a bit in the padded rest I was using, causing a vertical spread.

I loaded up 10 rounds and increased the load to 27 grains of IMR 4198, with 1 sheet of TP. On my way home from work, I stopped off at the range again. The first three shots were fired at 100 yards. This time instead of resting the forearm on a padded piece of wood, I held the rifle, resting my hand on the wood. The results are shown below:

4570-100-yds.jpg


A 2 & 3/4" group at 100 yards is not super, but it isn't bad either. I could easily live with that. I was pleased to see that the point of impact had been lowered by increasing the load slightly. The chronograph revealed a velocity of 1,372 fps, with an E.S. of 60 fps and an S.D. of 22 fps.

I figured I'd try three shots at 50 yards, also resting my hand on the block of wood. The results are shown below:

4570-50-yds.jpg


The 50 yard results shown above were worse than the 100 yard results. I suspect that I need to find a different load. I'm thinking of 5744, which is a little faster and may get the bullet off to a better start.

For my final 4 shots, I decided to shoot free-standing, offhand at 100 yards. Given my 50 yards results from a rest, I was not optimistic, but needed the practice of squeezing off the shot at 100 yards anyway. The results are shown below:

4570-offhand.jpg


Considering the possibility that this load is not consistently grouping, I felt that this wasn't too bad. My actual hunting bullet is going to be a gas check, which groups much tighter. I'll be spending the next 4 weeks doing offhand shooting in prep for hunting, as well as developing a plain base load, probably with 5744.
 
Nice rifle Win'. :cool: With a small bit of experimenting with non gas check 405gr bullets I've had mixed results at best too. I'd recommend IMR 3031 (no need for tp or any other filler) and keeping below 1300 ft/s - at least that's what my Marlin likes.

Confused though on the point of impact lowering with increased speed. :confused: I've only ever seen the reverse happen...
 
Salty, thanks for that experience with 3031. I'll probably be trying it out as well. Regarding point of impact, I've found with the 45/70 and these 405 grain bullets, that the slower the bullet, the higher the point of impact, up to a point. The reason seems to be that the slower bullet allows for a very miniscule barrel rise.
 
My 45-70 Marlin shoots lower with HV loads too, My theory is that the recoil with the slower loads allows the barrel to kick up some while the bullet is still in the bore. With the HV loads the bullet is gone out the front sooner, so there is less of the "still in the barrel" effect. The trajectory with high speed loads is flatter, as you'd expect, but the relationship to the sight setting is what has changed. With more modern, light/fast bullet cartridges, you don't see this effect.
 
Win 38-55 said:
Regarding point of impact, I've found with the 45/70 and these 405 grain bullets, that the slower the bullet, the higher the point of impact, up to a point. The reason seems to be that the slower bullet allows for a very miniscule barrel rise.
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OK, that makes some sence. My barrel is only 22" so the bullet isn't in the tube enough for me to have seen this senario..

But it sounds like my 1980s Marlin shoots better so tell ya what.. I'll do you a favour and trade ya straight across for that shot out old Winchester. ;)
 
Holding the fore end as opposed to free resting it will also bring the group down as the recoil effect is modified by the weight of your arm. A good reason to always confirm your sight-in by shooting a group holding the rifle as you would in the field.
 
Stocker, I believe you are right. I was thinking that I want to go back and try the 25 grain load again, but holding the forearm this time.

Salty, now that is a tempting offer (heh,heh .... not really). I had a Marlin 1895 .45-70 and it was a sweet gun, no doubt about it, but I really prefer the oldies. I've got two old Winchester '86's both in 45-70 and they are both a joy to shoot.

In general, I find the gas check bullets a piece of cake to load for. A fellow could almost throw some firewood or coal in the case and still get good accuracy. The plain base bullets require a little more fine tuning, however, and I'm just starting the job.
 
i have pushed 405 gr. plain base bullets to 2000fps. without problem and with good accuracy, AA2015 gets used the most.....bullets are either 10-1 lead to tin or Lino/mono type mixes.....this bullet is not cut for a GC and sized to .459"
 
I have been using 35 grains of IMR 4198 to push a 405 grain TLG "Bullet Barn" hardcast for a muzzle velocity of about 1450 fps in my guide gun. I find there is a bit of leading showing after 18 shots or so (no gas check) but the load is accurate and IMR 4198 burns cleaner than Varget or IMR 3031. I am sure this load would be adequate for moose within 100 yards. I love the 45/70 and love to read about others experience with reloading for it.

NormSC
 
NormSC said:
I am sure this load would be adequate for moose within 100 yards. I love the 45/70 and love to read about others experience with reloading for it.
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Norm, you are being very conservative regarding what a 405 grain 45/70 bullet can do. It does not have a lot of speed, but it has a tremendous amount of momentum. I shoot mine with iron sights out to 200 yards. Several years ago, I shot two large does at 185 yards. Both weighed about 200 pounds. The muzzle velocity of the 405 grain bullet was 1,350 fps. At 185 yards, it was probably around 1,100 fps. The bullets sailed right through those two does and kept on truckin'.

Take a look at this report http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot4.htm especially the report on the 45/70 starting on the bottom of page two. I like this quote, "It went through 12 boards of sheetrock, busted the water jug really nicely, busted the brick to pieces, and exited the back board ... carrying a brick and half of the back pine board with it, and was last seen headed down range, mad as the dickens." His concluding quote is, "Don't get in any gun fights with buffalo hunters. There ain't no such thing as cover."
 
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Win - very interesting thread, thanks for sharing.

I have a '86 in 40-65 and can't decide if the rifling looks good enough to gear up and try to make him shoot. One of these days I guess.....
Would wanna feed him blackpowder tho....
 
Dmay said:
Win - very interesting thread, thanks for sharing.

I have a '86 in 40-65 and can't decide if the rifling looks good enough to gear up and try to make him shoot. One of these days I guess.....
Would wanna feed him blackpowder tho....
Click to expand...

Well, you'd be surprised at how much accuracy you can get out of very worn and pitted rifling. Also, if you want a safe, smokeless load for your 40-65, let me know. I've got one.
 
Interesting stuff Win 38-55. Unfortunately this year I saw a nice young bull moose at about 250 yards heading away with a cow during my moose hunt. I had my 7mm rem mag with me in the boat as well, so of course I grabbed it to take the shot. I really wanted to try the 45-70, but with peep sights on it I wouldnt trust myself past 150 yards. Maybe next year !

Just curious which 405 cast bullet do you use? And have you tried any heavier casts ?

NormSC
 
Norm, up to this point, I've been using a 405 grain cast, gas-checked bullet that a local caster makes up. I don't know what mould he uses. To save a bit on money, since I shoot the 45-70 quite a lot, I just had him cast me 1,000 plain base 405 grain bullets. Again, I don't know what mould he uses. Both cast bullets have a flat nose. I've not tried the 500 grain bullets, mainly because it's costing me enough to use 405 grain bullets. However, I am planning to start casting my own soon, so maybe I'll give them a whirl. I use cast bullets in all my guns, including my 30-30.
 
H 4198, and Rel 7 work quite well for me in my 1886 with plain base bullets. IMR 3031 absolutely sucks in my rifle with the 350 grain Lyman plain base hollow point.
The Lyman cast bullet handbook recommends fillers for Rel 7, and I generally use some cotton quilt batting to fill the case. It works very well.
While it's true you don't need fillers for some powders, I find I get better groups when I use them.
You get a more uniform powder burn, and I think the filler acts somewhat like a gas check in protecting the bullet base.
 
Johnny, my sentiments exactly on fillers. In almost every case I get tighter groups and lower extreme spreads across the chrony, an indication of more consistent powder burn. I attribute the tighter groups to the toilet paper filler acting as a gas check, exactly as you surmise as well. I loaded up 4 batches tonight, some with IMR 4198 and some with 5744 and at two different diameters. Monday will tell how they do. If I have time, I'll post a proper report.
 
I use Lyman mould number 457193 with 1:30 alloy (IIRC it's 1:30 but the Old Man maintains that it's wheelweights, which would make more sense) and drive them at 1950 FPS out of a 28" tubed 1885 with minimal leading (which makes me think the Old Man was right about the alloy). The 457193 is a 405 gr (418 from my alloy) plain base bullet. I lube them with SPG though I did used some Hornady ALOX that came with the lube sizer (and I had no other use for it so why not). I use IMR 3031 which seems to work like a hot damn. Are you casting your own bullets or using commercial cast bullets? I'd try the 3031 and forget the 4198 if you're having to use a buffer. FWIW I got my load from "Pet Loads" and though I can't remember the exact load, Ken Waters lists 50 grains of 3031 with a 400 gr bullet (jacketed to the tune of 1623 FPS or 53 grains of 3031 at 1808. He lists a load of 38.5 grains of 3031 and a Remington 9 1/2 primer for a cast 414 grain Ohaus bullet but gives no velocity numbers. He lists a load of 33 grains of 4198 with the 414 Ohaus and a 9 1/2 as well thaough again, no velocity numbers.

As an aside, I LOVE that rifle rack under the picture. I've got to find me a nice old 1886 or 1885 to do the same with!
 
BigUgly, those are serious loads. In my old age, I prefer something a little more sedate. I've used a lot of 3031 in the past, but at reduced loads like I shoot (around 1,400 fps) I need to use filler with that too, to reduce the ES. It works fine with filler. With your loads, which fill up the case a bit better, I can see why you wouldn't need any filler.

If you like that rifle rack, here are a few more: From top to bottom:
Winchester 1894 Oct barrel 38-55 (1899)
Winchester 1892 Oct barrel 44-40 (1914)
Winchester 1892 rnd barrel 32-20 (1903)
Winchester 1886 Extra light 45-70 (1901)
Winchester Model 53 25-20 (1924)

Racks-of-Levers.jpg
 
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