Trying out a plain base cast bullet in my 45/70

M.T. Chambers offers 10 diff. cast bullets for the .45/70 or .458...all avail. soft through x-hard(Lino/Mono) in weights from 340gr. to 595gr. including the Wide Flat Nose 480gr. Gas Check which has been safely pushed to 1900fps. Deadly at both ends!!! All are avail. .458" or .459".
 
If your goin to shoot that light a charge I'd be tepmpted to leave homemade fillers out due to not getting them packed identically each time, and switch to something like a 4227. Is the bore real good? Cast and pitting are not buddies!
 
weebull said:
If your going to shoot that light a charge I'd be tempted to leave homemade fillers out due to not getting them packed identically each time, and switch to something like a 4227. Is the bore real good? Cast and pitting are not buddies!
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If you fill the case, you fill the case.
As long as you use the same filler material.
There is an obvious and dramatic difference between filled loads (better) versus non filled loads (inconsistent) for accuracy, when not using powders that fill the case.
 
I use toilet paper in pretty much all of my cartridges, from the 44-40 and up. My Winchester 1873 (made in 1888) has a poor poor with plenty of pitting. Toilet paper filler makes a dramatic difference with cast bullets and results in no leading. I had a bit of leading in my 38-55's but that vanished with the introduction of toilet paper filler. As Johnny said, and I concur, filler acts as a gas check, stopping the high pressure gases from blowing by the bullet, even as it passes over pits in the bore.

The GC bullet I've been using for years is great. This plain base one appears to be identical in shape, it just doesn't have a GC. I'm sure I'll get this plain base tuned up in the next few weeks to give tight groups.

Weebull, I don't have any 4227 at the moment, but I have lots of 5744 which, over the chrony, gives me identical ballistics. The two powders have almost identical burning rates. I did load up 3 batches with 5744, some with and some without TP filler. We'll see how they do tomorrow.
 
I have a number of cast bullets I've been trying in a couple of .45-70's, and a .458WM;
345gr RNFP BB
405gr RNFP BB
325gr LFN GC
420gr LFN GC
525gr LFN GC
525gr RN PB
I'm shooting a 1895 Marlin GS now, but with the weight you mentioned, 405gr, I 'found' a lighter load that worked well in a Pedersoli Remington Rollingblock replica I had. It's a load, the basis of which I got from an old 1st edition copy of the Lyman Handbook of Cast Bullets. The load's that turned out well with the 405gr was using 22 - 27*grs of IMR 4227 and a filler for velocities of 1200 - 1470* f/sec. I don't have a chrono, yet, but those are the velocities listed and the accuracy was great.
If you like, PM me your e-mail address and I could scan my target as well as the load page from the manual and send it to you. There are some other good lighter loads listed that may be of help. I haven't figured out how to post pic's etc yet.:redface: One of these days..........:rolleyes:
For fillers, I started using tissue paper, then shredded cotton ball material but a friend I shoot with, hs4570, put me onto something that works really well. There are a couple of different brands but like Ford & Chev, they're much the same. The product I'm using now is called 'Backer rod', a Stopdrafts item made by Tago that I picked up at Home Depot. It's a very porus round foam that I cut to length to fill the void between bullet base and powder. As the stuff I have is a little big in diameter, I cut a length wise wedge shaped slice out of it. No residue left behind and watching from the side when someone is shooting the loads, all you notice is what appears to be a 'puff' of dust.:D
 
Johnn, I've got a couple loads ready for testing that use 5744, virtually identical in ballistics, to 4227. One is 25 grains of 5744 with TP filler and the other uses 28 grains of 5744 with no TP. They should give roughly the same velocity. So one of those loads falls nicely into your suggestion of 22-27 grains of 4227.

Regarding filler, I like your backer rod idea. At some point I'd like to experiment with different fillers, observing both E.S. and ease of reloading, and leading, and group size (consistency). There is a very nice product called poly filler that seems to be about perfect except that it is ridiculously expensive if you do a lot of shooting.
 
Win 38-55 said:
Johnn, I've got a couple loads ready for testing that use 5744, virtually identical in ballistics, to 4227. One is 25 grains of 5744 with TP filler and the other uses 28 grains of 5744 with no TP. They should give roughly the same velocity. So one of those loads falls nicely into your suggestion of 22-27 grains of 4227.

Regarding filler, I like your backer rod idea. At some point I'd like to experiment with different fillers, observing both E.S. and ease of reloading, and leading, and group size (consistency). There is a very nice product called poly filler that seems to be about perfect except that it is ridiculously expensive if you do a lot of shooting.
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For me the only down side of using the backer rod is to start with, it was a little time consuming. I made up a little jig to use measuring & cutting the backer rod so now, the required time isn't an issue.
A target I have at the moment is one I shot with the Pedersoli, open sights and a good rest at 100 yds. The five shot group was 2.559", minus one as a flyer;), 1.385".
In my 'tattered' well used Lyman Handbook of Cast Bullets, the powders listed for that bullet weight are, Unique, 4198, 4759, 4227 and 2400. Velocities listed range from 1050 - 1470* f/sec. IMR 4227 has worked well for me with some of the lighter cast loads but I will get around to trying some of the other powders.
For the heavier jacketed loads, I've been primarily using IMR 3031 although another shooting friend, 303carbine, has had great results with IMR 4198. I've recently loaded a variety of jacketed bullets using 4198, now its a matter of getting out to the range and testing.
90% of my cast bullets I get from a local guy, with the exception of the 405gr. Those I picked up from another guy, not too far away.
Good luck. If you find something that works really well, post it and/or give me a shout.:)
 
I have used a 405gr flat base with both IMR 3031 and H4198. 32grs of 4198 gave me 1341fps with my guide gun. I was using #2 mix 9Ibs wheel weights and 1Ibs of 50-50 solder. That 1341 fps will penetrate 18" of sold white pine. 45grs of 3031 will give 1490fps and no leading and 2 more grains and I'm up to 1600fps. I took a nice black bear this fall with a 350gr gas check dropped out of a Saeco Mold. All I shoot out of my 45-70 is cast, thinking on a NEI mold for next year.
 
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