Trying to get ready for Coyote/Turkey...

ReVoR

ReVoR

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I'm taking my hunter education course in a couple of weeks and I've been in the process of patterning my Mossberg 535 so I can take it out coyote hunting and turkey hunting but I've been rather discouraged. I've been rifle shooting at targets for some time now and I'm comfortable with using them but messing with shotguns is very new to me. I'm confident in bringing my .223 out for yotes but I have a 6-18 power scope on it and want the shotgun for any close in work or when I go out strictly for turkey. I'll be hunting alone and have nobody to go with and really learn from either.

I tried some (quite a bit more than 'some' if you ask the bruises on my shoulder) Remington Magnum Express #4 Buckshot (3" 41 pellet) with Imp Cyl, Mod, Full, XX-Turkey and a Carlson's Coyote Choke and I can't say I've been impressed with any of them. The best I got out around maybe 40-45 yards was 15 hits on a 12"x12" target, that was with the Carlson's. On average anything past 35 yards with any of the chokes and it's usually less than 10 hits. Am I asking too much of my setup or is that even remotely acceptable for a coyote? I had to make a trip to Ottawa just to find the #4 because 00 Buck seems to be the only stuff available to me locally (I have Walmart and Canadian tire to choose from). Even if I became very serious about coyote hunting I don't think I could ever justify dropping $50 a box on 'Dead Coyote' etc.. so what other shot sizes can I look at?

The same chokes aren't patterning any of my #4, #5 or #6 turkey loads all that well either...maybe 4-8 hits if I'm lucky in the spine/brain on a turkey target at 35-45 yards with I'd say 50% of the shot missing a 2'x2' board completely.

Not sure if I've been reading too much crap online from other people getting 90%+ of their shot in a 10" circle at 50 yards or if it's just me being the problem.

Should I bother trying a more expensive ammo? Move up to 00 Buck and see what happens? I'm certainly not the most accurate shotgun shooter, my 535 kicks the crap out of me and less pellets going down range just seems like a bad idea at this point. Starting to think I should say to hell with the shotgun and bring my M305 with a red-dot. Quit while I'm ahead even? lol

Thanks,
James
 
Unless I'm reading this wrong, I think that you are doing things backwards. Don't buy one brand of shell and then start experimenting with different chokes. You've got the chokes already (xxfull and the Carlson's), so just try different brands of ammo, different shot sizes, etc. and you'll probably find one or two that do a lot better than the rest.

What you're doing now sounds the same as buying a brick of .22's, and then going through a succession of 10/22's trying to find one that works well...might work, but not exactly efficient.
 
ReVoR said:
The same chokes aren't patterning any of my #4, #5 or #6 turkey loads all that well either...maybe 4-8 hits if I'm lucky in the spine/brain on a turkey target at 35-45 yards with I'd say 50% of the shot missing a 2'x2' board completely.
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The #4 and #6 are 3" Winchester copper plated. The #5 is 3.5" Winchester Supreme unplated. These are the only ones I've been able to find locally. I also used cheap #4 and #8 birdshot to check my POI, which are fine out to 20 yards or so. I would get a couple different kinds of #4 buckshot but as I said, it simply isn't available. I went out looking for some lead/hevi BB size stuff today and it's pretty much unobtainium around here...only steel from is available in that size shot.

jjohnwm said:
Unless I'm reading this wrong, I think that you are doing things backwards. Don't buy one brand of shell and then start experimenting with different chokes. You've got the chokes already (xxfull and the Carlson's), so just try different brands of ammo, different shot sizes, etc. and you'll probably find one or two that do a lot better than the rest.

What you're doing now sounds the same as buying a brick of .22's, and then going through a succession of 10/22's trying to find one that works well...might work, but not exactly efficient.
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I understand what you are saying about getting one choke and running say a dozen or however many completely different brands of ammunition through it, but out of the 5 chokes I have you would think that one out of the 6 different shot sizes/types I have would show some sort of improvement. Technically at this rate I've got as much chance of 20 types of ammo not working in one choke as one type of ammo not working in 20 chokes.

Is it really that common to have to spend a couple hundred dollars just on shotgun ammo to find one that works? I guess if one type of rifle ammo can give you .5" smaller groups then I shouldn't be surprised that for shotguns the same can be said for giving 2' smaller groups.
 
ReVoR said:
Technically at this rate I've got as much chance of 20 types of ammo not working in one choke as one type of ammo not working in 20 chokes.

Is it really that common to have to spend a couple hundred dollars just on shotgun ammo to find one that works? I guess if one type of rifle ammo can give you .5" smaller groups then I shouldn't be surprised that for shotguns the same can be said for giving 2' smaller groups.
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I wouldn't think that it should be necessary to spend a fortune to try enough loads to find a good one. For sure it will be cheaper to try multiple loads rather than multiple chokes.

Back when I lived in turkey territory and pursued them fanatically, I did see a vast difference from one gun to the next. I had an 870 with an Undertaker choke which was an absolute killer with the Winchester high-velocity turkey loads in any of the three sizes, but especially with the #5's. It produced beautiful, tight and even patterns out to at least 45 yards...with any of the few other brands I tried it was a blunderbuss. On the other hand, I had a Nova with an aftermarket choke (I forget which one) that shot tight even patterns with almost any load I tried, but they started to fall apart after 40 yards no matter what I did. My best gun was an el cheapo H&R 10-gauge single shot. I had the gunsmith in King City, Ontario cut 10-inches off its 32-barrel and thread it, then install a turkey choke which I believe he made himself. A fibre-optic front sight and rear aperture landed on it, a home-sprayed camo paint job, and it became the sweetest-shooting, tightest-patterning, ugliest turkey gun I ever saw, and my absolute favourite.

I'm sure there's a decent turkey gun lurking in your shotgun. Hopefully you find it before you run out of patience.
 
If your shooting a 12 ga your going to be looking for a constriction in the .665 - .670 range and if its a copper load your using then the low end of .665 will handle much better. Hevi shot is far harder then lead and need to be used out of the more open of a .670 in most cases. Copper shot WILL NOT out pattern hevi shot loads. Custom Chokes such as Pure Gold from the USA will pattern much better as that is what they are to produce a better dencity. Most of these higher end chokes are sold that they can be exchanged if you are not satisfied with the pattern. If you plan to buy these chokes ask the owner to ship USPS ground as most cases they get here with out a border charge...
 
Try another brand of shell. Winchester shotgun from my past experience is outright garbage. Best bet is to find the shells that will pattern best with the chokes you have (as was stated earlier).

All the best and have fun just shooting some targets.
 
Thanks guys. I'll see what happens when the Undertaker choke arrives and go from there...I believe it's .675 constriction. It was under $40 shipped so I'm not out much if it doesn't work any better....cheaper than a drive to Ottawa for more ammo anyways. If that doesn't work I'll suck it up and see what other brands of ammo I can get at Sail or Le Baron. I'll need to make a trip for more .223 sooner or later anyways as that isn't available around here either.
 
I use the Kick's Gobblin' Thunder .665" tubes for gobbler's... for a bench mark... I use life size gobbler targets to pattern... I look for ten lethal hits on the paper bird... at the furthest distance where I can get ten lethal hits... is my maximum range... I don't shoot at birds beyond that range... I shoot Winchester 3 1/2" #5 buffered turkey loads.

If you would like a PDF file with a turkey pattern target, PM me your email address.
 
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glang1 said:
Holy ouch batman! Those 3 1/2 magnum turkey load kill at both ends. I find the 3" ones tough enough on my bony shoulders, lol.
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Yep... they bump... gave myself the proverbial third eyebrow on my very first gobbler a few years ago... took the shot, saw green trees then blue sky then everything went fuzzy for a minute or so... all was well when my faculties returned... "bird down!"
 
glang1 said:
Holy ouch batman! Those 3 1/2 magnum turkey load kill at both ends. I find the 3" ones tough enough on my bony shoulders, lol.
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Same here. From all the testing I've been doing I'm afraid that I'm developing a serious flinch. After a couple of hours my shoulder is certainly quite mad at me. I occasionally punch myself in the face too. Glad I'm not the only one who has an issue with them...I'm not a very big guy either.
 
I found Federal 3 1/2" magnum turkey loads work best in my Benelli. I had to try a few brands and even sub types to find ones that worked well. They still kick like a mule even with a 14 oz. mercury recoil reducer, muzzle brake, and limbsaver recoil pad. But I tell you what. The first time at 30 yards when I found the wadding stuck over 1/2" into the tree trunk with some shot still in it I wondered what the poor bird would look like. lol I do not have a XX-full choke setup either. I use a polychoke with built in brake on X-full. It seems to keep a pretty tight pattern so I am happy. The stock chokes wouldn't pattern worth a darn for this or ducks so the poly just stays in the gun for now.
 
ReVoR said:
Same here. From all the testing I've been doing I'm afraid that I'm developing a serious flinch. After a couple of hours my shoulder is certainly quite mad at me. I occasionally punch myself in the face too. Glad I'm not the only one who has an issue with them...I'm not a very big guy either.
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There is No reason What so ever to shoot 3 1/2 in turkey loads at all. Its hard to tell first timers but a 3 inch shell throws every bit of a dence pattern as a 3 1/2 shell the only difference is the quanity of shot in the shell. I have done this so many times and have not seen the reason at all...
 
Adrian J Hare said:
There is No reason What so ever to shoot 3 1/2 in turkey loads at all. Its hard to tell first timers but a 3 inch shell throws every bit of a dence pattern as a 3 1/2 shell the only difference is the quanity of shot in the shell. I have done this so many times and have not seen the reason at all...
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Though everything is patterning poorly, the 3.5's pattern the worst. I guess I should be thankful for that as I won't be using them anymore lol.
 
Adrian J Hare said:
There is No reason What so ever to shoot 3 1/2 in turkey loads at all. Its hard to tell first timers but a 3 inch shell throws every bit of a dence pattern as a 3 1/2 shell the only difference is the quanity of shot in the shell. I have done this so many times and have not seen the reason at all...
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Adrian... you are an experienced guy... but this statement makes zero sense;

I have indeed patterned some guns and found certain 3" loads to be superior to other 3 1/2" loads... but that can only be chalked up to the vagaries of the barrels uniqueness...

You say that the 3" throws a pattern every bit as dense as the 3 1/2", the "ONLY" difference is the quantity of the shot... it is the quantity of the shot that creates the pattern density... you are contradicting yourself in the same sentence... your statement ONLY makes sense within a given effective range for the 3" load... and it would not be "as" dense, but sufficiently so for a kill shot.

Out of a dozen shotguns that I have patterned, I have found 3" and 3 1/2" loads to throw equally effective patterns out to a certain range... beyond that range, the 3 1/2" loads continue to be effective (sufficient density for a sure kill) for up to an additional 10 yards... which is why we continue to shoot 3 1/2" loads... even though every bird but one that I have taken, could have been killed with a light 20 gauge load... almost all were under 20 yards.

Even so, the heavier 3 1/2" loads are clearly superior to 3" loads... that doesn't mean that anyone has to shoot them... just limit your range to the gauge/load combo you are shooting.
 
hoytcanon said:
Adrian... you are an experienced guy... but this statement makes zero sense;

I have indeed patterned some guns and found certain 3" loads to be superior to other 3 1/2" loads... but that can only be chalked up to the vagaries of the barrels uniqueness...

You say that the 3" throws a pattern every bit as dense as the 3 1/2", the "ONLY" difference is the quantity of the shot... it is the quantity of the shot that creates the pattern density... you are contradicting yourself in the same sentence... your statement ONLY makes sense within a given effective range for the 3" load... and it would not be "as" dense, but sufficiently so for a kill shot.

Out of a dozen shotguns that I have patterned, I have found 3" and 3 1/2" loads to throw equally effective patterns out to a certain range... beyond that range, the 3 1/2" loads continue to be effective (sufficient density for a sure kill) for up to an additional 10 yards... which is why we continue to shoot 3 1/2" loads... even though every bird but one that I have taken, could have been killed with a light 20 gauge load... almost all were under 20 yards.

Even so, the heavier 3 1/2" loads are clearly superior to 3" loads... that doesn't mean that anyone has to shoot them... just limit your range to the gauge/load combo you are shooting.
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O man here we go and I seen this reply when I replied. It makes perfect sence if you read it without flying off the handle because someones knowledge jumped above yours. I was not bashing you nor making fun of you in the reply only forwarding info to others that may help.

Clearly a 3 1/2 load has more shot in it then a 3 inch hall would hold. With the PROPER choke a 3 inch shell will produce as much of a dencity as a 3 1/2 will with the " less shot in it"

A 3 1/2 in shell will throw more shot because it has more, But Dead Is Dead no matter what shell you use, only you dont get the ass pounding with a 3 in shell.

NOW if you want to start on shot patterns and how a turkey gun will perform then I'm game all the way, because I have done all this work to understand how turkey guns will shoot and I dont have to pay for shells and targets which makes it easier for me. I have tons of hunters that come to my own range which is layed out for turkey patterning and I see what different guns will do and with what chokes and shot. Constrictions in choke are a very large part of the pattern and what you will get aswell.

You shoot your 12 ga 31/2 turkey gun and keep in mind, I'll kill every bird you would shoot at with a 20 gauge in the same place and never feel the kick what so ever.......
 
hoytcanon said:
Yep... they bump... gave myself the proverbial third eyebrow on my very first gobbler a few years ago... took the shot, saw green trees then blue sky then everything went fuzzy for a minute or so... all was well when my faculties returned... "bird down!"
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That was awesome! Great for a morning chuckle..
 
Adrian J Hare said:
O man here we go and I seen this reply when I replied. It makes perfect sence if you read it without flying off the handle because someones knowledge jumped above yours. I was not bashing you nor making fun of you in the reply only forwarding info to others that may help.

Clearly a 3 1/2 load has more shot in it then a 3 inch hall would hold. With the PROPER choke a 3 inch shell will produce as much of a dencity as a 3 1/2 will with the " less shot in it"

A 3 1/2 in shell will throw more shot because it has more, But Dead Is Dead no matter what shell you use, only you dont get the ass pounding with a 3 in shell.

NOW if you want to start on shot patterns and how a turkey gun will perform then I'm game all the way, because I have done all this work to understand how turkey guns will shoot and I dont have to pay for shells and targets which makes it easier for me. I have tons of hunters that come to my own range which is layed out for turkey patterning and I see what different guns will do and with what chokes and shot. Constrictions in choke are a very large part of the pattern and what you will get aswell.

You shoot your 12 ga 31/2 turkey gun and keep in mind, I'll kill every bird you would shoot at with a 20 gauge in the same place and never feel the kick what so ever.......
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Holy Crap! What got into you! I was not taking anything personally and I did not even realize that you were directing anything at me... You made a statement that I did not (do not) agree with... And since you don't know me or my history and experience, you make a bold statement to claim that your "knowledge jumped ahead of mine..." Whatever that means... I'll speak slowly here to aid comprehension (yah, you got my dander up)...

I don't care where you shoot or who pays for your shells and everyone should be getting free targets online... But the statement you made is unsupported by the parameters required to give it any credibility, such as this type of statement; "within 30 meters, the 3" load is as effective in all practical terms as the 3 1/2" loads." That statement I could agree with... But given an apples to apples comparison... Same gun, same choke same distance... The heavier payload will produce the denser pattern 9 times out of 10 (I would say 10 out of 10, but some barrel/choke combinations are quirky, which is why we pattern guns)... Further more the heavier 3 1/2" payload will maintain an effective pattern at greater range than a 3" load... that is my point and I'm stickin' to it...

Now go have a coffee... You are a little grumpy.

P.S - you must be built like a tank to not "feel the kick whatsoever..." I'm 6'4" and 260 pounds and I can feel the kick of a .410... And certainly those nasty 3 1/2" turkey loads.
 
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