Trying to identify British SxS maker

Torandir

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Hi All,
Sporting stuff is generally not my area of expertise, however i've had a few sporting arms fall into my lap lately. This one has had it's barrels refinished and I can't locate any makers markling on it anywhere. British Proof indicate 1887-1896 manufacture. Beautifully engraved, and has a distinct sapphire blue safety marking which seems to be a bit difference. Wondering if anyone can identify a potential maker based on the shape of the action or the style of lock up and fore end.

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OK, I'm always interested in these mysteries, but this is much later than my usual comfort zone.

Perhaps a reason why no one has chipped in yet is that there are some inconsistencies that are hard to reconcile.

It is a sidelock ejector, stocked to the fences. The extra skill with wood usually means a top-tier maker or someone producing work to that standard. It has an Anson fore-end release. The fences are carved in a manner frequently seen on Frederick Beesley guns, but this is not a Beesley action, and the serial number is way too high for a Beesley. William Evans guns are also seen with these kinds of fences. It might never be possible to identify the maker. It is one of a pair, so not your off-the-shelf gun. The barrels have been refinished, so it is possible that the maker's name on the rib has been sanded off and/or diminished by an aggressive hot-bluing. It looks like there might be the tiniest indication of lettering on the top rib, but I can't tell from the pictures. It is also possible the barrels are later replacements, as the gun has seen a lot of use, from the worn chequering. In this case, the London proofs might help age the barrels, but not the gun. Also, the top spindle screw is a later replacement, so the gun has been worked on at some point. I am insufficiently versed on ejector patents, so I can't tell from the photos if these are a specific mechanism, or a variation/copy. The action itself, a Scott spindle and Purdey underbolt, was made pretty widely after 1877, so the action type is no help. There is a hint of a third bite fastener, but I can't make out from the pictures if it is a true third-bite, or just a barrel extension.

What completely throws me is the style of the engraving. Your more typical rose-and-scroll leaves empty space around the circular 'bouquets', to make them stand out. On this gun, there is little of that, though it might just be the photographs. It all seems a bit too bunched and busy. The space on the lockplate bar usually reserved for the maker's name is fully engraved, almost awkwardly, like someone engraved over the name. It is almost like the engraving on the sideplates and bottom plate don't quite match in style... Of course, with British guns, everything is possible, and the client's requests on ornamentation will be followed.

This was an expensive gun, and the owner went to the trouble of adding the family crest and motto. The crest, a wyvern, wings up and addorsed, over a wreath, was unfortunately used by close to 60 families, so it doesn't narrow things much. The motto, ubi amor ibi fides (where there is love, there is trust), was recorded by several families, though none of these were known to combine it with the wyvern crest -- so the standard references don't help here either.

That's about all I could tell from the photos. Very nice gun, barrel wall thicknesses should probably be measured by a competent smith, and peculiar engraving. Perhaps under strong magnification it might be possible to tell if the engraving was refreshed or added to.
 
OK, I'm always interested in these mysteries, but this is much later than my usual comfort zone..

I have a lovely exposed hammer, underlever, Damascus 12ga SxS made by W Taunton that I'd love to know more about. I have been able to find very little about W Taunton. It appears he was active in London during the 1870's.

Apparently my gun came from a collector who had new wood made for numerous guns. My gun is very nice but has a few issues that need to be corrected. It seems that someone hot refinished the barrels, which caused the lead solder to shift and put the barrels out of whack. That needs to be fixed and the barrels need to be correctly finished so as to bring out the Damascus pattern, which had been hidden by the last refinishing.
 
I'm 99% sure i've seen that gun before,and went through it thoroughly ...if it's the same gun the bbls are dangerously thin ...it was dented badly in one area and I was able to push it out by running a tight patch through the bbl ! Washed my hands of it ,if it is the gun I expect it is ,as I can't imagine there being two like it in Newfoundland- do not fire it !
 
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I have a lovely exposed hammer, underlever, Damascus 12ga SxS made by W Taunton that I'd love to know more about. I have been able to find very little about W Taunton. It appears he was active in London during the 1870's.

Apparently my gun came from a collector who had new wood made for numerous guns. My gun is very nice but has a few issues that need to be corrected. It seems that someone hot refinished the barrels, which caused the lead solder to shift and put the barrels out of whack. That needs to be fixed and the barrels need to be correctly finished so as to bring out the Damascus pattern, which had been hidden by the last refinishing.

Are you sure about the spelling of the name? There was a William Tanton in operation 1869-1874 in Tenterden and Ashford, Kent, southeast of London. Otherwise, I can't find any Taunton in the usual references for British gunmakers and gun workers. Pictures would help!
 
Could this by any chance be Army & Navy? A&N SxS around these serial numbers seem to have full engravings + blue "Safe" + stylized acanthus leaves fencing.
 
Are you sure about the spelling of the name? There was a William Tanton in operation 1869-1874 in Tenterden and Ashford, Kent, southeast of London. Otherwise, I can't find any Taunton in the usual references for British gunmakers and gun workers. Pictures would help!

Sorry, spelled it wrong. You are correct, it is W Tanton. The sum total of information I have for him is:

"another gun maker is listed in 1874 and 1878 at the 28 George Street (38 Bank Street) address, this being William Tanton. While Tanton seems little know, he does appear in various gun makers reference books/directories such as British Gunmakers by Nigel Brown and within the Historical Database of the Internet Gun Club. Brown lists William Tanton in business c.1874 in Tenterden, Kent around 10 miles from Ashford. Perhaps, W. R. Leeson was in business for a short while with Tanton or indeed purchased his shop/business in Ashford. Certainly one of the gun case trade labels states that Leeson established his business c.1878 (a recent entry from The Field journal - see Articles section, shows W. R Leeson corresponding in mid January 1878 - may well prove that Leeson started his business earlier than initially thought). William Tanton himself appears in the 1881, 1891 and 1901 census but no longer associated with 38 Bank Street, Ashford."

Let me see if I can figure out how to post pics here.

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OK, just a test pic. I'll get some better ones for this gun.
 

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W Tanton

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Not sure why but this last pic is upside down. Its super hard to read but it def starts with W Tanton.

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There is of course the registry of matched pairs, dedicated to reuniting English guns that have been separated. matchedpairs.com

The acanthus leaves on the fences sure seem like they should offer some clues but I don't follow English guns close enough. It also looks to me like there might have been a name on each sideplate but that it's been covered over with engraving. That long narrow rectangle just jumps out.

If I really wanted to track it down, I'd post the same info and photos on the doublegun forum and also on the Facebook group "Best Gun Makers Only". The FB group is a private group......you'd have to join, but it's largely populated by active and retired members of the British gun trade. I have a hard time imagining they couldn't really get you on the right track. There is a pool of knowledge there unlike anything in North America.
 
I'm 99% sure i've seen that gun before,and went through it thoroughly ...if it's the same gun the bbls are dangerously thin ...it was dented badly in one area and I was able to push it out by running a tight patch through the bbl ! Washed my hands of it ,if it is the gun I expect it is ,as I can't imagine there being two like it in Newfoundland- do not fire it !

That's too bad... Because it sure looks pretty.
 
I'm 99% sure i've seen that gun before,and went through it thoroughly ...if it's the same gun the bbls are dangerously thin ...it was dented badly in one area and I was able to push it out by running a tight patch through the bbl ! Washed my hands of it ,if it is the gun I expect it is ,as I can't imagine there being two like it in Newfoundland- do not fire it !

Here's a thought- was your gun marked as #1 of a matched pair? Because if it was, that would be pretty much conclusive. On the other hand perhaps you had the other gun and if it was marked with a 2, well there you go.
 
The detective work in this thread is way above my scope.

Pinfire, the information you provide is something to be admired.
Took me a bit to understand how you achieved the "one of a pair".
The info is there, one just needs to understand it.

Always a pleasure reading what you put forth.

And what a lovely shotgun.
 
Hey Big Bad,here's a thought ...yes it's the same damn gun ! Picture from when I had it in hand years ago ,i could even show the dent ...just trying to help this individual from a bad purchase, or an uninformed sale or more importantly a trip to the hospital shotgun's 003 (1).jpg
 

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Thanks for all the feedback and info. It does appear to be the same gun, however interestingly i have mic'd the wall thicknesses at various points and all appear well above minimum as they spec at 0.048" at the muzzle and at 3" ahead of the chamber area measure 0.164, so these may be new barrels who knows. I'll get them checked anyways as thats always a good plan. No dents to speak of either which is strange. The lack of Nitro proof would leave me leaning on the side of not firing modern shells in it either unless told otherwise by someone way more competent in these old guns. Either way, a gorgeous gun!
 
Thanks for all the feedback and info. It does appear to be the same gun, however interestingly i have mic'd the wall thicknesses at various points and all appear well above minimum as they spec at 0.048" at the muzzle and at 3" ahead of the chamber area measure 0.164, so these may be new barrels who knows. I'll get them checked anyways as thats always a good plan. No dents to speak of either which is strange. The lack of Nitro proof would leave me leaning on the side of not firing modern shells in it either unless told otherwise by someone way more competent in these old guns. Either way, a gorgeous gun!

I can say with certainty (for sillymike) these barrels have not been sleeved. I've owned English guns with fluid steel barrels and only BP proofs. I shot modern low pressure shells out of them with no problems. However the key word there is low pressure, not modern. I'm not sure how you measured the barrel wall thicknesses but those numbers seem strongly suspect to me. I know that I would be paying extremely close attention to the observations and advice of a man who makes his living working on vintage guns, who has actually held the gun and examined it on behalf of it's owner at the time. Barrels don't suddenly get thicker.

It's a seductive gun because the engraving is so interesting. But that doesn't mean it's worth anything. Without good barrels, they are simply wallhangers, whatever they cost.
 
Agreed, hence the treip to the gunsmith. Bores were checked using telescoping gauges relative to the outside diameter measured with a micrometer. It's what i used to do in a shop for final QC on various research pojects. Was going off of a long article that was speaking about minimum thicknesses used in british proofing, so some more digging is probably necessary. Should I go to sell it obviously it makes a difference between a 100$ wall hanger and a 1000$ functional double. Obviously it hasn't left NL, but may have been rebarreled by someone in the past
 
I can say with certainty (for sillymike) these barrels have not been sleeved.

I was thinking or sleeving (or re-barreling) as an (somewhat expensive) solution to the potentially too-thin barrels... Reading on a British double forum that some folks are sending their guns out to Spain and Italy to have the work done, because there aren't all that many people doing it in the UK...

But unless the gun has sentimental value, or is from a desirable maker... Not sure it make sense.

*-*-*

Speaking of the posted SxS, I wonder what's the cobalt-blue they used for the "safe" ?
- Kind of reminds me of the finish used on some sidelock bolts (Of course, I can't find a picture now that I'm looking for one)
 
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