Tumbling bullet to knock down a deer?

[hawk-i]

.I really do think it might catch on with those of us who are beyond "stunting" with sub calibers on big game.

It may be more of a matter of waiting for the proper shot than "stunting"....When I hunt moose with my 7-08 using 139 gr SST's, I wait for perfect broadside opportunity. If it isn't presented I'll pass, just that simply.
In the past, I've taken shots using magnums and premium bullets that would more correctly fit the term "stunting".
Just trying to point out it could go either way.

 

[Tikkam65]

I'm using a 264 and I blow base ball size holes for exit wounds
section density I don't believe your 223 has that ....
i cAn take out the front shoulder do a bang flop dead
Yes I spoil 1 shoulder but .
There is no adrenaline in my meat
that shoulder explodes into the heart and Lung
they don't move a single foot
I think 60 grains is to light

 

[mxzx440]

Here is an interesting article on the development of the .223 or 5.56 NATO, personally I wouldn't use a 223 on deer, and its illegal here in Sask, especially with the bigger bodied ones, getting up to 400 lbs on hoof, stick with something a little bigger, but just my thoughts on it.

http://anarchangel.########.ca/2007/02/okay-so-why-did-we-choose-556.html

 

[KodiakHntr]

I'm using a 264 and I blow base ball size holes for exit wounds
section density I don't believe your 223 has that ....
i cAn take out the front shoulder do a bang flop dead
Yes I spoil 1 shoulder but .
There is no adrenaline in my meat
that shoulder explodes into the heart and Lung
they don't move a single foot
I think 60 grains is to light

Hmm. Maybe you can explain sectional density to me? How does it kill stuff?

Might have heard about the 264 before. How does it work? Kills like lightning huh? Never had a runner? Must be magical.....

 

[jjohnwm]

The modern-day, 21st century version of the catch-phrase is apparently "use just-barely-enough-under-ideal-conditions-and-not-one-tiny-bit-more gun".

 

[rral22]

a bullet that will reach the vitals with enough upset to impair function,

And one that will do it from any angle if necessary is enough gun. There are times, inevitable times, when you may have to shoot at an animal that is not in the ideal presentation. Almost all those circumstances that occurred while I was hunting were the result of a previously wounded animal that needed to be stopped to end a very bad situation. I almost always get close, and shoot only good angle shots, but I admit too that I have taken a bad angle shot on a very big buck, just because it was very big. No problem ensued due to my cartridge/bullet choice.

If you are saying things like

And I know enough about mine to know what shots to take and which to pass upon

or perhaps

I wait for perfect broadside opportunity. If it isn't presented I'll pass, just that simply.

then you know full well you are not using enough gun and are compensating for that fact. That may work fine for you as long as you absolutely follow those limitations, but you are proving you are NOT using enough gun, and you are NOT proving your cartridge choice is a wise one - just that it CAN work if things go right. That fact should be obvious to all because almost anything will work when things go right.

Enough gun means you don't have to depend on things going perfectly to ensure a humane and quick kill. LOTS of cartridges are enough gun for deer, because deer are not particularly tough to bag. But I do not believe any .22 center fire is enough gun for all circumstances, and almost everyone on this thread agrees - even the even those who are trying to argue their effectiveness.

 

[hawk-i]

^^^^^, yeppers, the USA government use to think you needed a 45-70 to kill an enemy soldier....now its a 223.

 

[hawk-i]

Nope, I'm saying it works just fine and is absolutely enough gun in my hands.....dead is dead, there lies the proof!
The correct statement you should be making is it is NOT enough gun in YOUR hands.

 

[sunray]

"...a 223..." That'd be your issue. A .223 with varmint bullets with little or no penetration whatsoever. Total irresponsiblity bordering on incompetence.
"...Wouldn't a tumbling bullet..." It's highly unlikely that bullet was tumbling. Bambi was far more likely to have been hit by a piece of the bullet after it broke up or a piece of the twig that destroyed the bullet. Varmint bullets are not in any way suitable for deer sized game.

 

[KodiakHntr]

And one that will do it from any angle if necessary is enough gun. There are times, inevitable times, when you may have to shoot at an animal that is not in the ideal presentation. Almost all those circumstances that occurred while I was hunting were the result of a previously wounded animal that needed to be stopped to end a very bad situation. I almost always get close, and shoot only good angle shots, but I admit too that I have taken a bad angle shot on a very big buck, just because it was very big. No problem ensued due to my cartridge/bullet choice.

So in that scenario, of a wounded animal where for whatever reason he needed a second poke, you wait for ideal presentation? Or do you simply want to break him down and bring him to bag as quickly as possible? Or are you someone who won't take that second shot if you can't do it without "wasting" meat?

In your own words you say you took a bad angle poor percentage shot, simply because it was "big". Was there no other shot option? Or did you simply succumb to the temptation? You say you only hunt close and take good angle shots, unless its too tempting for you.....?

Personally, I'm a little bit ok with a rifle, but I'm also more than a little bit good as a hunter. And be it a rifle, bow, or spear in my hands, I know if I can make a shot and kill something cleanly. Use any tool within its limitations, and learn your own limitations.

 

[RickF]

This has been a fun thread. A bruise on a ribcage is accepted as FACT that a puny 223 didn't penetrate. Then multiple pages on the inadequacy of the 223 and moral superiority of those who won't use it. KodiakHuntr's experience is dismissed or ignored. A lot of guys use the 223 on deer very effectively in B.C.

My dollar says the bullet deflected off a twig (I have had 250 grain bullets from a 358 Norma deflect) and hit the deer somewhere in the spine area and was missed in the field dressing.

 

[c-fbmi]

I will say I have never lived in a region where 22 CFs were legal for big game so I have zero experience with the taking of big game with a 22 CF. I don't think anyone on here will say that a 223 won't kill a deer because of course it will !! The question here is the effectiveness of that diminutive bullet under ALL hunting circumstances. This is the same discussion as long range hunting, the eastern hardwoods hunters almost never get shots over 100 mtrs so their needs and norms are a lot different from say mine where a lot of open high country and open tundra represent most of my hunting scenarios. I have different needs and wants in my cartridge selection for hunting my specific locales. One who hunts exclusively from stands have another scenario again, where a 223 might be perfectly adequate at very close range on an unsuspecting animal, which isn't already alerted and poised for flight. I PERSONALLY would not use a 22CF on even deer (except for possibly coastal blacktail) but I can imagine scenarios where it may be adequate. I PERSONALLY find even the 243 to be marginal for WT deer in the circumstances where I hunted them in Sask, BIG deer and a lot of open ground and a lot of moving to running shots, not conducive to perfect shot placement and the biggest bodied WTs I've ever seen. Oh and by the way, a 300 Wby 200 gnrer in the guts sacks them so don't try to tell me a gut shot with a 300 wby and with a 243 have the same effect.........they most certainly do not.
Now here in the Kootenays where I winter, I could easily kill a deer with my hornet from my kitchen window and could probably call my shot to within a hairs width. Different scenarios..........different landscapes...........different range extremes..........and vastly different sized animals all within the heading of WT deer. My point being that to snipe one from my kitchen window would not fall under the heading of hunting to me, more just taking advantage of a situation as presented and under very controlled circumstances and at very close range and if the perfect shot didn't present then I would wait till tomorrow, not exactly trophy hunting big smart trophy WTs !!
I also agree with rral22 that if a trophy buck presented me with a shot at ANY angle he's gonna catch a bullet and with my chosen rifle and cartridge I will guarantee I'm going to recover that buck, if it isn't already a bang flop. Why......how can I be so confident, you ask? Because I believe in using a caliber and bullet that will reach the vitals from any angle possible at any range from 7 to 750 Mtrs. I am not an experienced WT hunter but have taken a lot of game in the size class and larger so I feel this experience is valid regardless. Another factor which influences my cartridge selection which no doubt shades my selection greatly is the fact that almost any animal I hunt in the Yukon and most areas in western Canada shares it's habitat with our grizzly, although a 25-06 and the like, may be more than adequate for Dall sheep it most certainly is, at best marginal for a grizzly, this probably has a lot to do with my penchant for 30 cal mags, even my semi-custom ultra light sheep and goat rifle is still a 300 WSM for exactly this reason.
I will say that when I do decide to take up residency here in BC and decide to hunt some of these local WTs I think I will still use my Bob or maybe my Swede, cause you never know when a trophy elk or monster black bear might wander into view, and the last thing I want in my hands is a 223 !!!!!

 

[RickF]

I won't disagree with any of that.

But I will make the observation: I may have missed someone, but other than KodiakHntr, everyone is talking calibers and cartridges. NO ONE is talking about particular bullets.

 

[antiqueguy]

And one that will do it from any angle if necessary is enough gun. There are times, inevitable times, when you may have to shoot at an animal that is not in the ideal presentation. Almost all those circumstances that occurred while I was hunting were the result of a previously wounded animal that needed to be stopped to end a very bad situation. I almost always get close, and shoot only good angle shots, but I admit too that I have taken a bad angle shot on a very big buck, just because it was very big. No problem ensued due to my cartridge/bullet choice.

thing is you don't have to take a iffy shot no one is forcing you. id rather pass up a iffy shot on the last day of the season then screw up because even with a belted magnum bad shot placement is still going to take hours to die. this is hunter ethics and responsibility not mater what cal I have be it a .22 hornet or a 8 bore im not going to mag iffy shots

 

[KodiakHntr]

So, c-fbmi, reading that, what you are saying, is that a 223 won't work for YOU, based on your need to potentially take a texas heart shot at 750 metres on a 300 lb deer. Ok, fair enough.

For ME, sometimes up here I hunt with a 7wsm and 120 tsx's or 162 amax's in case I need to take a 1000 yard shot....Zero restrictions. Sometimes I hunt with a 300 Ultra and tsx's....Zero restrictions. Sometimes I hunt with a 45/70, full well knowing I'll have to pass up any shot past 200 yards. Sometimes I hunt black bears with a spear (successfully), knowing that my effective range is single digit yards. Sometimes I hunt with a 243 and 105 amax's, knowing that I'm limiting myself to 700 yards on any angle with deer.

But I think thats the difference, I know what the limitations are, and that some equipment isn't going to work in every scenario. But if I choose to use something I'm absolutely going to put a bullet where it counts, because I know what that bullet at that speed is capable of.

Knowing your gear, will ALWAYS trump guessing and conjecture.

And as a resident of Northern BC, formerly of the Kootenays, I'm well aware of the challenges that terrain can present. As a dedicated sheep hunter living in grizzly country I'm aware of how scared some guys can get of the big bears. I personally don't see the need to carry a 300 in sheep country, but I'm not going to try and jump someone who does.

In fact, this season coming up I may elect to simply carry a 243AI from August 1st through November 30th, and you know what? I bet it won't stop me from silencing as many heartbeats as I did this year.....

 

[rral22]

So in that scenario, of a wounded animal where for whatever reason he needed a second poke, you wait for ideal presentation? Or do you simply want to break him down and bring him to bag as quickly as possible? Or are you someone who won't take that second shot if you can't do it without "wasting" meat?

In your own words you say you took a bad angle poor percentage shot, simply because it was "big". Was there no other shot option? Or did you simply succumb to the temptation? You say you only hunt close and take good angle shots, unless its too tempting for you.....?

Personally, I'm a little bit ok with a rifle, but I'm also more than a little bit good as a hunter. And be it a rifle, bow, or spear in my hands, I know if I can make a shot and kill something cleanly. Use any tool within its limitations, and learn your own limitations.

You really don't get it at all. I took what I knew was a bad angle shot because I also knew it was NOT a low percentage shot because I was carrying a .270 loaded with 150 grain Partitions that I knew would shoot all the way through the deer to the vitals from my bad angle. The bad angle did not lower the percentages of success because I had enough gun. I didn't have another shot option. He was going to leave for good. I did not succumb to temptation, I prepared for that eventuality by carrying enough gun.

Any wounded animal needs to be shot now, and shot very hard from whatever angle is presented at the first opportunity. Having enough gun is a very good idea at that point.

Try to think about hunting and what actually happens at times, rather than just trying to find some way to insult people on the internet. Logic is a good idea. Ad hominem is not logic.

 

[KodiakHntr]

No, read what I wrote. I can't force you to actually comprehend it, but if you read it slower maybe you will.

You choose to use something YOU feel is adequate for the shot you took. Personally, I think you are a fool to think a Partition is a proper bullet to quarter shoot a deer. If I put it like that and type slower, will you see the similarity between why your argument to the OP lacks substance or merit?