Sounds like a good reason to shop your LGS. They should be able to give you the low-down on the maker and model of what they sell. I've found most are pretty honest about their products. Not sure I'd trust one of the big shops, though.
turkish the new spanish
- Thread starter brybenn
- Start date
My point is that their process is out of control or was never established in the first place. Sadly we have turned into a "cheap must be better" society. That's why our oceans are filling up with plastic. Cheap is only better if it works, reliably. I have been a manufacturing engineer or 30 years. I know junk when I see it. I really get tired of people saying "they are great guns if you get this fixed and then don't put too many rounds through it." I guess I am just old fashion I like things to work when I buy them. I shoot likely 6 to 7 K of clay birds a year. I have seen many guys start out with Turkish guns, most are gone after first year.
I am not looking for a pissing contest here, shoot what you like.
Kenny, you may be one of the few who truly understand the manufacturing process. I come at it from 35 years on the sales and marketing side that of course, having to work with manufacturing to actually have the product. The race to cheap crap is driven by the consumer. Walmart, and it's imitators, is successful because people make a choice about value. How much quality am I prepared or able to pay for.
Your point about quality, IMHO, makes me imagine we should all be driving BMW's. Very well engineered and undeniably excellent performing sport sedans. But that not why all of us want or need to drive. Many of us need to throw crap in the back. Many of us can't afford the $50-$120K. Sometimes, for certain buyers, the Kia is actually a better fit. Remember, Kia, as a brand, is a direct descendant of the Hyundai Pony from the 1980's. A crap car that took the Canadian market by storm, outselling everything from the then established Asian brands. Why did it do so well? Low price due exclusively to lower rates of labour costs in Korea as compared to Japan.
Your point about quality, IMHO, makes me imagine we should all be driving BMW's. Very well engineered and undeniably excellent performing sport sedans. But that not why all of us want or need to drive. Many of us need to throw crap in the back. Many of us can't afford the $50-$120K. Sometimes, for certain buyers, the Kia is actually a better fit. Remember, Kia, as a brand, is a direct descendant of the Hyundai Pony from the 1980's. A crap car that took the Canadian market by storm, outselling everything from the then established Asian brands. Why did it do so well? Low price due exclusively to lower rates of labour costs in Korea as compared to Japan.
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You may be perfectly right, Dilly. His head may in fact be up his ass. But I don't think the definition of knowledge is the number of posts one has on gunnutz.
It's not just us as society driving the "cheap is better" line, on the flip side lots of companies out there cheap out on the products, but still charge a premium price, so it's both sides leading the downward spiral where the consumer says "why pay a premium when the quality is just as bad as the cheaper alternative" and the manufacturers/businesses say "why keep paying a lot for high quality when people will pay the same regardless for our brand"
For what it's worth on this topic though, I have owned and used several Turkish shotguns and some have been misses, some have been fantastic.
Personally I have found if you stick with an established brand, one example is hatsan, they're made in turkey and have sold lots of guns over the years and don't see to be going anywhere and Akker seem to be building a good reputation, or you stick with a reputable dealer, in my experience any of the Turkish guns from Corwin Arms have performed as I expected them to, or any problems I have had Martin has taken care of immediately.
If I were to stray outside of that it's a risk you have to weigh, if it will work, what sort of support is there after the fact.
I have a Turkish Armed Impactor Camp Vista 12ga Semi, picked it up for 499 can't complain at all and it has my buddies who all have more expensive pumps jealous. I like it a lot, parts may be difficult but really I am sure they will been seen more in the future. Westrifle is the sole distributor of this line in Canada right now.
http://www.armedguns.com.tr/images/hunting_semiauto_impactor_camo_vista.jpg
http://www.armedguns.com.tr/images/hunting_semiauto_impactor_camo_vista.jpg
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This is wrong, sorry.
Companies don't arbitrarily cheapen stuff. They respond to their customers demands. That demand is represented by their sales. And that demand is a hard taskmaster. Get it wrong and the company goes out of business.
Once one accepts that it is okay that the company is in business to make a reasonable profit, then the behaviour of successful companies (brands) is rational. To bring it back on point, it is highly likely that, over some period of time, the feedback received by those building and selling the Turkish guns will cause those same entities to change their manufacturing to better respond to their consumers needs. Otherwise, their sales will drop to the point the enterprise is no longer worthwhile.
Someone with a engineering background will just about always have a bias towards a well made product. A student with limited funds will just about always have a bias towards something inexpensive. Neither is wrong. It's called choice in the marketplace and the enterprises who do it best survive and continue. The rest drop by the wayside.
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I have looked at several reasonably priced Turkish shotguns that were quite serviceable, but I have also seen a lot of low end product that I would never own. I have not seen any Turkish shotguns that compare to the better quality Spanish guns. However some people want to believe that they can purchase a low priced Turkish shotgun that is just as good as other shotguns costing two or three times as much, and I guess that is just human nature.
I had a 20ga CZ Ringneck and now have now have a 20ga CZ Grouse SxS. Both are nice guns and swing and point well (for me). I bought both of them used and plan on keeping the Grouse to use in the bush and the occasional dove hunt. I am confident it will easily stand up to the the couple hundred shells I might put through it in a year. I have also have/had a handful of each Beretta and Browning guns. The CZ's I have/had do not have the same fit and finish quality of the B guns. I don't have any higher end Spanish SxS's, but I have seen a few (AYA, Ugartechea, etc.). The CZ's are not even remotely close to being in the same league as them. The CZ's are decent serviceable hunting guns that are quite well built for their price point. Just my opinion.
They don't abitrarily cheap out on the quality, the intentionally cheap out of the quality because it raises profit margins. You prove the point when you say earlier that Walmart and its imitators are successful because they intentionally bring in lower quality goods and charge slightly lower prices for a significantly lower quality.
Of course they do it intentionally. They do it intentionally because of the response it engenders from their customers. If they bought cheaper products or cheapened an existing product and it didn't sell, they would either stop doing that or go out of business.
And every company, the world over, is trying to figure out how to increase their profits. That is why they exist. To make money. One way to do it is to sell a product at the same price as before but find a way to decrease the production cost (increasing the margin). Another is to lower the retail price, selling on a tighter margin but have more people buy it than before so the gross profit earned by the company on the aggregate of sales increase. For a given product and market, these strategies either work or they don't work. It's not some freaking conspiracy AND ANYONE IS FREE TO PONY UP THEIR OWN MONEY IF THEY CAN DO A BETTER JOB!
I know something about this subject having used my own knowledge and cash for 35 years to make a living, at the same time providing jobs for people who didn't have the personal confidence to risk their own assets in the same pursuit. If my reward at the end of the day was greater than theirs, I am fine with that.
No one forces anyone to buy cheap crap. I don't buy cheap crap for areas of my life I care about. But I have watched many companies fail because they came into the market place imagining there were enough people who valued quality that it could support their endeavors.
It's very easy to blame Walmart, Cabelas or similar enterprises for the lack of quality in products. But no one forces you to buy. I buy Filson products, I buy Orvis products, I buy Le Chameau rubber boots and Russell boots. I won't buy a gun of lesser quality than a B gun. And I have around 20 shotguns. That's a choice I have made.
But I don't crap on the products or companies that are providing a service that is enjoyed by some segment of the marketplace and I don't buy the idiotic notion that our lack of choice for quality products is the result of a conspiracy of money grubbing fat cats.
If you want quality, step up and pay for it. If you want to know why made in Canada or the US is so expensive, look around at your fellow enablers of the nanny state government and the taxes required to support it. If you want a government that wipes your ass and thinks for you, it costs money.
Me thinks there are a greater number of gun owning socialists here than I may have imagined.
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My original comparison turkish to Spanish wasn't quality based so much but as to they both have numerous small unknown names building guns and build parts for each other. Often names that are hard to say let alone spell
I happen to think some higher end Spanish guns are the best for the money and I hope to own several examples some time. However I'm looking for a sub gauge gun to be used. A new Ithaca 28 ga pump is still over $1500 by the time it reaches my door. And that's without upgraded wood.
Some turkish guns offer a nice looking double for $700-1000. I prefer break action guns no doubt but it's like trucks. I have a $40 000 truck I'm not going to drive it down skidded paths and destroy the paint and body. If i had a $1500 truck hold on cuz I'd drive it anywhere.
That's what I'm looking for with a 28 and 410. I'm willing to give up some quality for the sake of harder treatment
Beretta guns are much better built then turkish guns. They're built on better equipment and with better materials no doubt. At my local club many guys can swap barrel sets between guns and gauges and they all lock up tight. That's not going to happen with a cheap ou very often
For those of you that have had them what brands were decent and which should be avoided?
I've had a very bad experience with tristar from kral
Yildz and cz are proven
I happen to think some higher end Spanish guns are the best for the money and I hope to own several examples some time. However I'm looking for a sub gauge gun to be used. A new Ithaca 28 ga pump is still over $1500 by the time it reaches my door. And that's without upgraded wood.
Some turkish guns offer a nice looking double for $700-1000. I prefer break action guns no doubt but it's like trucks. I have a $40 000 truck I'm not going to drive it down skidded paths and destroy the paint and body. If i had a $1500 truck hold on cuz I'd drive it anywhere.
That's what I'm looking for with a 28 and 410. I'm willing to give up some quality for the sake of harder treatment
Beretta guns are much better built then turkish guns. They're built on better equipment and with better materials no doubt. At my local club many guys can swap barrel sets between guns and gauges and they all lock up tight. That's not going to happen with a cheap ou very often
For those of you that have had them what brands were decent and which should be avoided?
I've had a very bad experience with tristar from kral
Yildz and cz are proven
Actually, I said no such thing. You are putting words in my mouth.
Quote me if you want. Challenge what I'm saying if you want. But don't twist my words or meaning. We might think you're a socialist! LOL
Before I replied, I took some time to read his "extensive" posts. The first one sets the stage. The fourth one is exactly opposite. I usually don't bother with stuff like this. This one just ruffled my feathers.
Brutus
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Some of us have the benefit of enough shooting/hunting years to accumulate the common corporate knowledge regarding the higher opinion of others of such better known 'modern' shotguns as, Browning Superposed, SKBs, AYAs, etc.
We have yet to sort out (myself) the newer brand names that do not have the luxury of decades of hard use from other dedicated North American shotgun enthusiasts.
Time and use will tell us the ones to covet or otherwise. Seek out the ones that nicely fit into your own personal hunting/shooting habits.
my 2 bits
We have yet to sort out (myself) the newer brand names that do not have the luxury of decades of hard use from other dedicated North American shotgun enthusiasts.
Time and use will tell us the ones to covet or otherwise. Seek out the ones that nicely fit into your own personal hunting/shooting habits.
my 2 bits
Okay everyone, canvasback has money and he wants us to know it. Btw filson and orvis import the majority of their goods from China and Bangladesh. Check the labels or look for the little "imported" fine print on their websites. So you pay $100 usd for a polo shirt that costs $12 at Walmart, well done. I rest my case, you don't always get what you pay for.
And why critize guns you obviously don't have experience with? You're like the guy who drives a Cadillac and looks down on people who drive Chevy's. So you only buy b guns, good for you. So what the heck do you know about Turkish guns? Or Spanish? Etc. You are as bad as the guy who thinks a $500 Mossberg is just as good as a b gun , but in reverse.
Where I come from, having money and class means not being showy with either.
Uplandguy, your post just shows you know absolutely nothing about me but says a lot about you.
I mentioned a couple of things to illustrate a point. That we all make judgements about what we are prepared to do and spend. And I specifically encouraged people to take a look at less expensive products (like guns from Turkey) and judge them on their actual merits, rather than internet rumour. I'm arguing for finding the potential quality in less expensive products, not just rejecting them because of where they come from.
One thing your post illustrates in spades is your lack of reading comprehension. But I may have hit a nerve with the socialist thing. LOL
I mentioned a couple of things to illustrate a point. That we all make judgements about what we are prepared to do and spend. And I specifically encouraged people to take a look at less expensive products (like guns from Turkey) and judge them on their actual merits, rather than internet rumour. I'm arguing for finding the potential quality in less expensive products, not just rejecting them because of where they come from.
One thing your post illustrates in spades is your lack of reading comprehension. But I may have hit a nerve with the socialist thing. LOL
