Turning belted cartridges into rimmed ones?
- Thread starter Dave L.
- Start date
Hehee...
This project started shortly after the failiure of the .729/50BMG, the .416/.50BMG, and the .729/12.7x107mm Destroyer. The .729/50BMG and the .416/.50BMG I abandoned because someone had already done it - Someone here made a .729/50BMG and Ronnie Barrett beat me to the .416, and I abandoned the 12.7x107mm case necked up to .729 because I didn't know where to get brass. My design for a 12ga revolver would have also produced something prohibb'd, so I scrapped that as well.
So instead of going bigger in a rifle, I decided on something ambitious, but not outrageous - I figured I'd try to dethrone the .500 Smith & Wesson as 'the most powerful handgun known to man.'
There are guns that fire the .45-70, but the .45-70 was loaded with long barrels in mind - I noticed that some reviewers of the .45-70 BFR said that the gun ended up spraying out a lot of unburned gunpowder. So I figured I'd have to design a load specifically with the idea of a 12" barrel in mind - or shorter.
With that in mind I figured I'd cut down a .460 Weatherby case by removing its neck, grind off the belt and add a rim so it could be extracted out of a revolver, then load it with about a hundred grains of Alliant 2400 or the equivalent, plug it with a Federal 215 primer and stick a .55-calibre 500-grain cast lead pill on the thing.
Apparently MRI offers the BFR in calibres aside from the ones they've got listed. Of course, I'm sorta having trouble imagining this thing... the cylinder would undoubtedly be the size of a can of soup.
- Dave.
This project started shortly after the failiure of the .729/50BMG, the .416/.50BMG, and the .729/12.7x107mm Destroyer. The .729/50BMG and the .416/.50BMG I abandoned because someone had already done it - Someone here made a .729/50BMG and Ronnie Barrett beat me to the .416, and I abandoned the 12.7x107mm case necked up to .729 because I didn't know where to get brass. My design for a 12ga revolver would have also produced something prohibb'd, so I scrapped that as well.
So instead of going bigger in a rifle, I decided on something ambitious, but not outrageous - I figured I'd try to dethrone the .500 Smith & Wesson as 'the most powerful handgun known to man.'
There are guns that fire the .45-70, but the .45-70 was loaded with long barrels in mind - I noticed that some reviewers of the .45-70 BFR said that the gun ended up spraying out a lot of unburned gunpowder. So I figured I'd have to design a load specifically with the idea of a 12" barrel in mind - or shorter.
With that in mind I figured I'd cut down a .460 Weatherby case by removing its neck, grind off the belt and add a rim so it could be extracted out of a revolver, then load it with about a hundred grains of Alliant 2400 or the equivalent, plug it with a Federal 215 primer and stick a .55-calibre 500-grain cast lead pill on the thing.
Apparently MRI offers the BFR in calibres aside from the ones they've got listed. Of course, I'm sorta having trouble imagining this thing... the cylinder would undoubtedly be the size of a can of soup.
- Dave.
I'm trying to find a .460 Weatherby case to measure as well, to see if it will work - so if anybody has a virgin .460 Weatherby cartridge case, PM me, I'll talk price.
If all goes well, it should be able to have about, well, maybe three times the powder of a .500 Smith. I'm hoping to achieve at least 6,000 foot pounds out of a 12" barrel without kaboomifying.
I have tentatively titled this project the .55 Harbringer.
- Dave.
If all goes well, it should be able to have about, well, maybe three times the powder of a .500 Smith. I'm hoping to achieve at least 6,000 foot pounds out of a 12" barrel without kaboomifying.
I have tentatively titled this project the .55 Harbringer.
- Dave.
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Did someone mention a 45-70 handgun?
I notice that you mention a .55 cal bore.
As the poor guys in the USA cannot own handguns larger than 50 cal, but we in the free north can
, I had thought of a couple of rounds called the Tobifusa, and the Yakonut
"Too Big For USA"
You All Can't Own Nuthin' Up Thar"
just my goofy humour.
I notice that you mention a .55 cal bore.
As the poor guys in the USA cannot own handguns larger than 50 cal, but we in the free north can
, I had thought of a couple of rounds called the Tobifusa, and the Yakonut"Too Big For USA"
You All Can't Own Nuthin' Up Thar"
just my goofy humour.
What style of action would this handgun take? The only reason for the rim on a single action Colt style revolver is to prevent the cartridge from falling completely through the cylinder ,in a belted magnum the belt should do that job, if the round is ejected like in a Colt style design there is no need for the rim either. If the design is a S&W style swing out cylinder , not rim is necessary for headspacing and an extractor like the type used by Ruger and S&W for their 9mm revolvers might work( little spring loaded fingers to engage groove to extract case). On a one of type gun a solid frame with a removable cylinder pin then use the cylinder pin for ejection . Like a big heavy solid frame Harrington and Richardson .22. There is a low tech method of putting rims on rimless cases called swaging but it doesn't work on belted cases unless the belt is machined off. But it does require the use of a lathe to make the tools necessary and to trim the rim to the proper size. . Also one of the gun mags years ago had an article about using those little round E shaped spring clips on rimless necked cartridges that were being fired in single shot rifles that had extractors for rimmed cartridges. This way there was no necessity to change the extractor which on some designs can be expensive and difficult. The cartridges headspaced on their necks, belts or shoulders and the clip was just for extraction.
Someone at CGS reccomended using Hodgdon's Lil' Gun in .45-70 Government cartridges. I'm not sure how much to use, though, although reloading the .45-70 for a short barrel sounds like a lot of fun.
Meanwhile I heard something about a revolver for the .600 NE! But I suppose that doesn't count because the .600 NE was meant for rifles.
Thanks, Bearman. I was going to base it on a Smith or Taurus design of a Double-Action revolver with a swing-out cylinder. No doubt I'd need to beef up the mechanism and cylinder lockup as well. Needless to say this isn't an original design, it's a clone of someone else's, just on a larger scale.
I'll need the blueprints for those - or better yet, a Colt Python.
I know I'm probably going to need to shorten the cartridge if I use a .460 or .378 Weatherby, it's just a matter of how short to cut it. I don't want to shorten the cartridge so much that it's not going to be able to accept all the powder, and I don't want to let it go too long. Currently I'm thinking of cutting it at exactly 2.345", right at the neck, and not seating the bullets in very far.
I hope 100 grains of powder can fit inside it - I'm thinking of using a magnum pistol powder, like Alliant 2400 or Vihtavuori N350. To prevent hangfires I'll need to pack some N310 around the flash hole, although I dunno how safe doing that is. I'm going to need every single cubic millimetre of space inside that cartridge.
I've got access to a lathe, a punch press and some saws, and next year I might have access to 4-Axis CNC machines, which would help if I actually managed to pull this off.
In the meantime I'll have to search for a good, extra-strong Ruger #1 Action and try building a single-shot break-action pistol carbine on that to test the loads. I'll also need to search for someone suicidal enough to attempt to fire it.
My objective is to get at least over 6000 ft-lbs out of the muzzle with a 500-grain bullet. No more than twelve inches on the barrel.
Any suggestions on charge type or charge weight? And cartridge dimensions? Is this too ambitious?
- Dave.
Meanwhile I heard something about a revolver for the .600 NE! But I suppose that doesn't count because the .600 NE was meant for rifles.
Thanks, Bearman. I was going to base it on a Smith or Taurus design of a Double-Action revolver with a swing-out cylinder. No doubt I'd need to beef up the mechanism and cylinder lockup as well. Needless to say this isn't an original design, it's a clone of someone else's, just on a larger scale.
I'll need the blueprints for those - or better yet, a Colt Python.
I know I'm probably going to need to shorten the cartridge if I use a .460 or .378 Weatherby, it's just a matter of how short to cut it. I don't want to shorten the cartridge so much that it's not going to be able to accept all the powder, and I don't want to let it go too long. Currently I'm thinking of cutting it at exactly 2.345", right at the neck, and not seating the bullets in very far.
I hope 100 grains of powder can fit inside it - I'm thinking of using a magnum pistol powder, like Alliant 2400 or Vihtavuori N350. To prevent hangfires I'll need to pack some N310 around the flash hole, although I dunno how safe doing that is. I'm going to need every single cubic millimetre of space inside that cartridge.
I've got access to a lathe, a punch press and some saws, and next year I might have access to 4-Axis CNC machines, which would help if I actually managed to pull this off.
In the meantime I'll have to search for a good, extra-strong Ruger #1 Action and try building a single-shot break-action pistol carbine on that to test the loads. I'll also need to search for someone suicidal enough to attempt to fire it.
My objective is to get at least over 6000 ft-lbs out of the muzzle with a 500-grain bullet. No more than twelve inches on the barrel.
Any suggestions on charge type or charge weight? And cartridge dimensions? Is this too ambitious?
- Dave.
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Instead of guessing and blowing something up or being disappointed, you might invest in QuickDesign and QuickLoad. http://www.neconos.com/
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
100gr of smokeless powder at high pressure in a HG. WOW......OUCH!!!!
Why not start with a bolt action pistol? Think XP100 on steroids.
You could start with a Wby MkV action. This is strong enough for any of their cigar sized cases. No issue with the belt and it would aid in headspacing. Just install a 12" barrel, register as a HG, enjoy the trips to the ER for wrist surgery.
If you don't like the bolt action, why not an Encore (???) or Ruger #1. The Ruger #1 has come in supersized boomers. A T/C "contender" on steroids.
I am unaware of any revolver that can accept a 3 1/4 to 3 1/2" long cartridge.
Jerry
Why not start with a bolt action pistol? Think XP100 on steroids.
You could start with a Wby MkV action. This is strong enough for any of their cigar sized cases. No issue with the belt and it would aid in headspacing. Just install a 12" barrel, register as a HG, enjoy the trips to the ER for wrist surgery.
If you don't like the bolt action, why not an Encore (???) or Ruger #1. The Ruger #1 has come in supersized boomers. A T/C "contender" on steroids.
I am unaware of any revolver that can accept a 3 1/4 to 3 1/2" long cartridge.
Jerry
There's currently no *production* revolver on the market, so I'm trying to build one. At the moment the only thing that exists for the Harbringer is the designs for it. To give you an idea of how big this thing is, the cylinder is the size of a pop can and holds three shots. I have another design for it that uses a slightly larger cylinder and houses four, and another one for five. At the moment I'm going to go with three.
I had an idea for an arm bracer for it, much like a slingshot, that would fold up from the pistol grip and run along the user's forearm, but I removed that from the design after I realised that strapping it to the user's forearm could be potentially dangerous.
Thanks, Acrashb, I'll look into it.
Yeah, I had envisioned a Ruger #1 action to test the first loadouts. The action of the #1 seems the best, seeing as it won't be as long as a bolt action. Gonna need a helluva action to make this thing work, I can tell ya that!
Hehe... the first test shot will probably be done with the gun bolted to a tripod made from steel pipe, sunk into the ground and held down using steel dog-spikes. I'll tie a string to the trigger and I'll be sure to stand far, far, far away, especially considering that I'm hoping to make this gun three times as powerful than the mighty .500 Smith!
- Dave.
I had an idea for an arm bracer for it, much like a slingshot, that would fold up from the pistol grip and run along the user's forearm, but I removed that from the design after I realised that strapping it to the user's forearm could be potentially dangerous.
Thanks, Acrashb, I'll look into it.
Yeah, I had envisioned a Ruger #1 action to test the first loadouts. The action of the #1 seems the best, seeing as it won't be as long as a bolt action. Gonna need a helluva action to make this thing work, I can tell ya that!
Hehe... the first test shot will probably be done with the gun bolted to a tripod made from steel pipe, sunk into the ground and held down using steel dog-spikes. I'll tie a string to the trigger and I'll be sure to stand far, far, far away, especially considering that I'm hoping to make this gun three times as powerful than the mighty .500 Smith!
- Dave.
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Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Dave L. said:But I suppose that doesn't count because the .600 NE was meant for rifles.
Sure it counts, the .45-70 was meant for rifles too.
The .600 NE revolver is the world's most powerful handgun, a literal behemoth. Also, keep in mind, I'm not sure a 3 shot cylinder can be made to turn reliably, even some 5 rounders have issues due to the long throw of the hand. 3 rounds is asking a lot of the hand as far as rotating the cylinder to the next round, especially on a cylinder the size of a pop can.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
I think a falling block HG ala Contender would be ideal for this monster.
As to 'explosion', I doubt you will have any issue finding starting loads to develop this monster. The action is more then strong enough to tolerate the 'mild' starting loads.
SSK Industries (I think) has developed Rugers in some absolutely gonzo big cases. Odds are a search will also net some info on comparable wildcats.
In fact, the 500 Whisper is exactly what you are building. These have been built on Ruger M77 actions as a light BMG. OUCH!!!!!
I will see if I still have some info for you.
Jerry
As to 'explosion', I doubt you will have any issue finding starting loads to develop this monster. The action is more then strong enough to tolerate the 'mild' starting loads.
SSK Industries (I think) has developed Rugers in some absolutely gonzo big cases. Odds are a search will also net some info on comparable wildcats.
In fact, the 500 Whisper is exactly what you are building. These have been built on Ruger M77 actions as a light BMG. OUCH!!!!!
I will see if I still have some info for you.
Jerry
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I'm with Jerry, a T/C based gun is ideal, that way it will actually fly, I figure the revolver's got about a 5% chance of seeing daylight, simply because of all the issues involved. The T/C would actually be smarter in all respects, more accurate, more powerful, MUCH cheaper, on the order of at least dozens of times by my guess.
...NNnnnnnooooooooooooo!
*Drawn-out Darthvaderesque howl of despair*
The .500 Whisper's just that? A shortened .460 WBY magnum necked up to a .55" bullet? Aaaugh!
*This* sounds problematic - very problematic. Anyone got any suggestions?
- Dave.
Dave L. said:
As I noted above, the partypoopers in the US put an upper limit on HG bore of .50 cal. Your idea of a .55 would not be allowed down there in a HG, and it would be a Destructive Device in a rifle.
BTW, why .55? Other than cutting up an old Boyes barrel (SINNER!
), where are you going to get one? Go for the gusto, and make it .577My Tobifusa and Yakonut brainstorms
rolleyes: if they ever happen) will be .52 and .577 calibreYeah, it would be prohibited in the states - I heard about the Dimocrat's ban. I think they're just paranoid.
Oooh! I just got a great idea - this gun would also be made with a second purpose in mind: to make sarah brady poop her pants. Okay, that works.
I figured a .55" bullet because I'm guessing that's how wide the .460 WBY mag case would be with its neck cut off. I actually don't know how wide the .460 is, so I tentatively titled it the .55 Harbringer. I just bought a .378 Weatherby case off the EE, and I'm going to cut off its neck and see what it is inside. I got a digital machinists' caliper for my birthday, so I can use it to measure the inside of the case. After that, it could be the .52 or .51 or .53 or whatever.
To create the molds for casting the bullets for this cartridge I'm going to cut a block of aluminum in half and knurl both pieces, clamp them back together, put 'em on a lathe and drill them out, then weld them to a pair of vicegrips.
As for a .55 barrel... well, actually, until now, chopping up an old Boys Antitank rifle had never occurred to me. If I found a Boys Antitank rifle I'd probably just keep it and use it for blasting things. But Douglas and Shilen might be able to offer custom barrel cutting, or at least the barrel blanks. I would need to take it to a gunsmith to have the barrel cut and fitted to the frame. Currently that's the plan.
I honestly don't know about a .577" bullet. The ones offered by A-Square are actually .585" in size. At that kind of size I might as well go all the way to the .600 Nitro Express.
I don't know if it's possible to get the .460 Weatherby to neck up and blow out to accept a .585" bullet - help?
On the other hand, the loads from AccurateReloading show the .600 NE being able to go all the way to 10500 ft-lbs, but the original loads clocked a meagre 6700 to 7500.
Like yikes, my brain is starting to overheat.
- Dave.
Oooh! I just got a great idea - this gun would also be made with a second purpose in mind: to make sarah brady poop her pants.
Okay, that works. I figured a .55" bullet because I'm guessing that's how wide the .460 WBY mag case would be with its neck cut off. I actually don't know how wide the .460 is, so I tentatively titled it the .55 Harbringer. I just bought a .378 Weatherby case off the EE, and I'm going to cut off its neck and see what it is inside. I got a digital machinists' caliper for my birthday, so I can use it to measure the inside of the case. After that, it could be the .52 or .51 or .53 or whatever.
To create the molds for casting the bullets for this cartridge I'm going to cut a block of aluminum in half and knurl both pieces, clamp them back together, put 'em on a lathe and drill them out, then weld them to a pair of vicegrips.
As for a .55 barrel... well, actually, until now, chopping up an old Boys Antitank rifle had never occurred to me. If I found a Boys Antitank rifle I'd probably just keep it and use it for blasting things.
But Douglas and Shilen might be able to offer custom barrel cutting, or at least the barrel blanks. I would need to take it to a gunsmith to have the barrel cut and fitted to the frame. Currently that's the plan. I honestly don't know about a .577" bullet. The ones offered by A-Square are actually .585" in size. At that kind of size I might as well go all the way to the .600 Nitro Express.
I don't know if it's possible to get the .460 Weatherby to neck up and blow out to accept a .585" bullet - help?
On the other hand, the loads from AccurateReloading show the .600 NE being able to go all the way to 10500 ft-lbs, but the original loads clocked a meagre 6700 to 7500.
Like yikes, my brain is starting to overheat.
- Dave.
